Rick Warren...<sigh>

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]And here I thought you guys would jump on me for going door-to-door on visitation!

I do not agree with the English Separatists Descent theory.  Though it is the semi-official view of the Southern Baptists virtually all historians, I believe it has flaws.[/quote]

I fixed it for you.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]It is only the most recent of theories (recent history is usually revised history) - it is not the view of those living in the 1600's or even the 1500's. [/quote]

Sources?

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]It claims that the Baptists are descendants of Catholicism.  It makes no room for people of Baptists heritage before the Separatists.[/quote]

Probably because they didn't exist. You do realize that you are talking about a time in history where the vast majority of the population couldn't read, books (including Bibles) were rare (and very expensive), and the Bible that were available weren't in the venacular, right?

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Also, history records the Baptists in England before the Catholics even arrived on the island to become Anglican to become Separatists.[/quote]

Sources?

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]The name Baptist has not always been the name given to a group of people holding Baptists doctrine, principle and pattern.  However, the true church did exist outside of Catholic.  I am not so concerned about the name given to the group as I am the doctrine, principle and pattern of the church. [/quote]

I've seen that lineage. It also includes groups that believed full-blown heresies and none of which would be recognized as "Baptist" today regarding all doctrine, principles and patterns of the church. You might, at best, get two or three points in some of these categories to show some similarity.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Definitely, some ana-baptsits were not Baptists.[/quote]

Ana-baptist were/are Ana-baptists, not Baptist.
 
rsc2a said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
rsc2a said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
And for the Church of Satan when they choose a new high priest or priestess.
Or the for the Masons when they choose a new Grand Poobah?

Being a true freebird requires one to be a contortionist.....Hallelujah!  :o
Click to expand...

Should you pray for your brothers? For your neighbors? For your enemies?
Click to expand...

Of course we should...but we shouldn't pray for success in their sin.
Do I pray for a drug dealer to score a better grade of pot?
Click to expand...

I didn't realize Warren was that specific.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Do you believe the Catholic Church to be an arm of Evangelicalism or an apostate religion?
Click to expand...

Neither.
[/quote]

'Fasting and praying' for the selection of the leader of an apostate religion seems specific to me.
And, by definition, the doctrine of the RCC is apostate.

The five solas were a direct response to and contradiction of the false doctrictine and corruption of Rome.
Can't imagine Luther or Zwingli doing such....
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Binaca Chugger]And here I thought you guys would jump on me for going door-to-door on visitation!

I do not agree with the English Separatists Descent theory.  Though it is the semi-official view of the Southern Baptists virtually all historians, I believe it has flaws.
Click to expand...

I fixed it for you.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]It is only the most recent of theories (recent history is usually revised history) - it is not the view of those living in the 1600's or even the 1500's. [/quote]

Sources?

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]It claims that the Baptists are descendants of Catholicism.  It makes no room for people of Baptists heritage before the Separatists.[/quote]

Probably because they didn't exist. You do realize that you are talking about a time in history where the vast majority of the population couldn't read, books (including Bibles) were rare (and very expensive), and the Bible that were available weren't in the venacular, right?

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Also, history records the Baptists in England before the Catholics even arrived on the island to become Anglican to become Separatists.[/quote]

Sources?

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]The name Baptist has not always been the name given to a group of people holding Baptists doctrine, principle and pattern.  However, the true church did exist outside of Catholic.  I am not so concerned about the name given to the group as I am the doctrine, principle and pattern of the church. [/quote]

I've seen that lineage. It also includes groups that believed full-blown heresies and none of which would be recognized as "Baptist" today regarding all doctrine, principles and patterns of the church. You might, at best, get two or three points in some of these categories to show some similarity.

[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Definitely, some ana-baptsits were not Baptists.[/quote]

Ana-baptist were/are Ana-baptists, not Baptist.
[/quote]

Sources?  I am a fundy - it is true because I said it.  I am the source!  (just kidding ;))

Most of my Baptist History stuff is not easily accessible and honestly, I don't have time to go digging for it right now.  If you want to study the topic, try the following link and get some resources.  Do some reading with an open mind and leave your love of all religions behind.  After you have read most of these works through that link you will have a good start to the subject.

http://www.standardbearer.org/shop/Detail.aspx?ID=566
 
No decision yet.  Apparently the Holy Spirit is too pooped to pope.
 
Why in the world should this tweet by Warren even be news?  He has a record of using his perceived gravitas and standing in the evangelical community to lend credibility to enemies of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

He did it in with his inaugural appearance and prayer, giving credibility to Islam.

He did it with embracing Dr. Oz and associates in his Fat Farm effort giving credence to their Oprah-ish/Choprah-ish spiritism.

And now he lends substantial credibility to the Roman Catholic Church being just another evangelical voice. 

Let's face it people, Warren is one of those people Paul warns us about as being "enemies of the cross of Christ."
 
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]'Fasting and praying' for the selection of the leader of an apostate religion seems specific to me.[/quote]

Yes...I would think we would want everyone to do God's will when they select a leader. What's your point?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And, by definition, the doctrine of the RCC is apostate.[/quote]

By what definition? By your personal theology? Sure, they are...so are the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the Methodists....

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The five solas were a direct response to and contradiction of the false doctrictine and corruption of Rome.[/quote]

Was Rome corrupt? Sure...so are many of the IFB churches.

Regarding their doctrine, I've found that the vast majority of people who are so anti-Catholic don't even know what Catholics believe. (Case-in-point: I had one IFB preacher tell me Catholicism is so heretical because they deny the divinity of Jesus.)

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Can't imagine Luther or Zwingli doing such....[/quote]

Luther would call you a heretic for your views of the sacraments. So, what's your point?
 
[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Sources?  I am a fundy - it is true because I said it.  I am the source!  (just kidding ;))

Most of my Baptist History stuff is not easily accessible and honestly, I don't have time to go digging for it right now.  If you want to study the topic, try the following link and get some resources.  Do some reading with an open mind and leave your love of all religions behind.  After you have read most of these works through that link you will have a good start to the subject.

http://www.standardbearer.org/shop/Detail.aspx?ID=566
[/quote]

Title from their bookstore: The Baptist Heritage: Four Centuries Of Baptist Witness

I'm also amused that I am being accused of having a closed mind while at the same time being (supposedly) admonished for having an open mind...in the same sentence!

(And, so you know, there is a major difference in acknowledging that one (or even one brand of Christianity) doesn't have it all figured out, resulting in a broader search while still affirming the essentials, and accepting every faith view from every religious flavor out there.)
 
Dude.  White smoke.  Pass the doritos, man.  Cardinals got da muncies.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]'Fasting and praying' for the selection of the leader of an apostate religion seems specific to me.
Click to expand...

Yes...I would think we would want everyone to do God's will when they select a leader. What's your point?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And, by definition, the doctrine of the RCC is apostate.[/quote]

By what definition? By your personal theology? Sure, they are...so are the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the Methodists....

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The five solas were a direct response to and contradiction of the false doctrictine and corruption of Rome.[/quote]

Was Rome corrupt? Sure...so are many of the IFB churches.

Regarding their doctrine, I've found that the vast majority of people who are so anti-Catholic don't even know what Catholics believe. (Case-in-point: I had one IFB preacher tell me Catholicism is so heretical because they deny the divinity of Jesus.)

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Can't imagine Luther or Zwingli doing such....[/quote]

Luther would call you a heretic for your views of the sacraments. So, what's your point?
[/quote]

My point is that Warren is giving credence to the Catholic Church, a false religion, and frustrates me in so doing.
No more, no less.


What's your point?
 
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]My point is that Warren is giving credence to the Catholic Church, a false religion, and frustrates me in so doing.
No more, no less.


What's your point?[/quote]

My point is that Warren did nothing more than ask that people pray that the cardinals do God's will. I think that's a fine request, regardless of circumstances.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Binaca Chugger]Definitely, some ana-baptsits were not Baptists.
Click to expand...

Ana-baptist were/are Ana-baptists, not Baptist.
[/quote]

Not necessarily. There is no evidence prior to the "Reformation" of anything "Baptist". You know the history of the term "ana-baptist". It was a generic term used to identify those who rejected infant baptism. Yes, we can trace some descendants but the generic term was used beyond defining a particular "branch" of re-baptizers. Some consider the term to have lead to some embracing the term and calling themselves "baptist". I tend to agree with this thinking. Either way, religious affiliation in name, has never been an exact science.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]My point is that Warren is giving credence to the Catholic Church, a false religion, and frustrates me in so doing.
No more, no less.


What's your point?
Click to expand...

My point is that Warren did nothing more than ask that people pray that the cardinals do God's will. I think that's a fine request, regardless of circumstances.
[/quote]

For what it's worth, I don't see anything wrong with it, and I'm definitely not a fan of Rick Warren.

By the way, they picked a pope.  Pope Francis Sinatra I. 
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]My point is that Warren is giving credence to the Catholic Church, a false religion, and frustrates me in so doing.
No more, no less.


What's your point?
Click to expand...

My point is that Warren did nothing more than ask that people pray that the cardinals do God's will. I think that's a fine request, regardless of circumstances.
[/quote]

It was a prayer for the Bishops and not that God's Divine Will be done. I couldn't pray for a group of bishops to vote for the "final authority" in all things "Catholic". The very fact they use such nonsense is proof they could care less about God's will. Its was "Warren's" way of remaining "relevant". He has long cared too much about public opinion. Its no different than praying that Islamic faiths find the proper "Imam". No matter what choice is made, it will be a BAD one. I don't expect God's Direct and Divine influence to guide them in such matters.
 
[quote author=christundivided]It was a prayer for the Bishops and not that God's Divine Will be done. I couldn't pray for a group of bishops to vote for the "final authority" in all things "Catholic".[/quote]

Jesus said to pray for your enemies. The cardinals are hardly your enemies so they would definitely fall within that spectrum. Why would you deliberately disobey a direct command of Jesus?

[quote author=christundivided]The very fact they use such nonsense is proof they could care less about God's will.[/quote]

How?

[quote author=christundivided]Its was "Warren's" way of remaining "relevant". He has long cared too much about public opinion. Its no different than praying that Islamic faiths find the proper "Imam".[/quote]

I still fail to see how this would be an improper prayer request.

[quote author=christundivided]No matter what choice is made, it will be a BAD one. I don't expect God's Direct and Divine influence to guide them in such matters.[/quote]

So now you are saying you don't believe the Bible? (Or are you unaware that it states multiple times in a variety of places and contexts that God moves the hearts of kings as He wills?)
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=christundivided]It was a prayer for the Bishops and not that God's Divine Will be done. I couldn't pray for a group of bishops to vote for the "final authority" in all things "Catholic".
Click to expand...

Jesus said to pray for your enemies. The cardinals are hardly your enemies so they would definitely fall within that spectrum. Why would you deliberately disobey a direct command of Jesus?[/quote]

You bore me Vic. You're just arguing to argue. I know you like to do that with me, but I grow tired of it.

To "pray for your enemies" is not wishing that they would continue is wrong doing.

I still fail to see how this would be an improper prayer request.
Click to expand...

Pray for whatever you want. Pray that Obama finds success in his search for humility. Have at it. I don't expect it to do much good... because he's not looking for humility. Maybe you can make an application?

So now you are saying you don't believe the Bible? (Or are you unaware that it states multiple times in a variety of places and contexts that God moves the hearts of kings as He wills?)
Click to expand...

Sure I'm aware. I've probably read it more than you have. For one, we are not talking about "Kings". Second, Warren wasn't expressing such a request. Third, such a request doesn't involve well wishes in success. Get it?
 
christundivided said:
rsc2a said:
[quote author=christundivided]It was a prayer for the Bishops and not that God's Divine Will be done. I couldn't pray for a group of bishops to vote for the "final authority" in all things "Catholic".
Click to expand...

Jesus said to pray for your enemies. The cardinals are hardly your enemies so they would definitely fall within that spectrum. Why would you deliberately disobey a direct command of Jesus?
Click to expand...

You bore me Vic. You're just arguing to argue. I know you like to do that with me, but I grow tired of it.

To "pray for your enemies" is not wishing that they would continue is wrong doing.

I still fail to see how this would be an improper prayer request.
Click to expand...

Pray for whatever you want. Pray that Obama finds success in his search for humility. Have at it. I don't expect it to do much good... because he's not looking for humility. Maybe you can make an application?

So now you are saying you don't believe the Bible? (Or are you unaware that it states multiple times in a variety of places and contexts that God moves the hearts of kings as He wills?)
Click to expand...

Sure I'm aware. I've probably read it more than you have. For one, we are not talking about "Kings". Second, Warren wasn't expressing such a request. Third, such a request doesn't involve well wishes in success. Get it?
[/quote]

Perhaps you should re-read the quote. You seem to be adding a lot to his request. Here, I'll post it: Join me today in fasting and prayer for the 115 Cardinals seeking God's Will in a new leader - Rick Warren


And (regarding the part I underlined): I see you are just as humble as ever. You have no idea who I am. How could you possible make these assertions from a place other than arrogance? (You also might want to look at the context regarding "kings" and study up on what roles the Pope has.)

((P.P.S. It also doesn't necessarily matter how often you read Scripture if you keep coming to the same wrong conclusions. The person who reads it once and has the right conclusion is still better off than you.))
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]'Fasting and praying' for the selection of the leader of an apostate religion seems specific to me.
Click to expand...

Yes...I would think we would want everyone to do God's will when they select a leader. What's your point?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And, by definition, the doctrine of the RCC is apostate.
Click to expand...

By what definition? By your personal theology? Sure, they are...so are the Presbyterians, the Lutherans, the Methodists....

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]The five solas were a direct response to and contradiction of the false doctrictine and corruption of Rome.[/quote]

Was Rome corrupt? Sure...so are many of the IFB churches.

Regarding their doctrine, I've found that the vast majority of people who are so anti-Catholic don't even know what Catholics believe. (Case-in-point: I had one IFB preacher tell me Catholicism is so heretical because they deny the divinity of Jesus.)

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Can't imagine Luther or Zwingli doing such....[/quote]

Luther would call you a heretic for your views of the sacraments. So, what's your point?
[/quote]

My point is that Warren is giving credence to the Catholic Church, a false religion, and frustrates me in so doing.
No more, no less.


What's your point?
[/quote]Amen.  And the gutless equivocation by some posters is a sure sign of the times.

Anishinabe

 
In and of itself there is absolutely nothing wrong with his tweet.

However I "get it" that people aren't happy or comfortable with it in the context he is more inclined to inclusiveness (not to be confused with universalism) as opposed to being a separatist. I too think it's Rick trying too much to be "relevant" at times. I am instinctively not comfortable with it, right or wrong. But I totally disagree he gave any "credence" to Islam by mentioning the name of Jesus as used by both Muslims and Christians in Arabic, etc.

Rick has finally agreed to have a daily radio program beginning in April after decidedly staying away from TV and radio for years. Boy, won't that be a target-rich environment for some.  LOL. (Probably not so much. His son told me it was going to be replays of his sermons).
 
https://twitter.com/RickWarren/status/311922267376463873

Does this sound like "God speed" to anybody but me? 

II Jn. 10-11
 
Does this sound like "God speed" to anybody but me?

Yep.

"Habemus papam," Rick Warren? By no means. Maybe habetis papem, but non habeo papa.

You do not speak for evangelicals. Vade salire in lacum.
 
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