Revival in America

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rsc2a said:
prophet said:
JrChurch said:
[size=14pt]Psalms 85:6  Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?
The LORD's part in this is?  The reviving of the ground.  Same with IIChron. 7:14 :how to get the curse on their labors removed. 
  Show me where God sent a movement of the people, towards Him.  God sends preachers, prophets, His Word, witnesses, laborers into His harvest. 

I'll start with two: the Exodus and Pentecost.  Seeing as how those are pivotal moments in Scripture (i.e. moments in which all future history, relatively speaking, is hinged), I think that should be sufficient.

I don't know about those two rsc2a.  The Exodus didn't take place until after God sent Moses and Pentecost was a direct result of God sending the Apostles.  I think we would have to agree that God works by His Spirit and Word through humans to influence humans.  It is not the result of the person alone but of God working in them. 

One of the weaknesses and divisive aspects of modern Christianity is that we seem to always create an "either/or" paradigm where an "and/both" paradigm clearly exists in Scripture.
 
graceandtruth said:
rsc2a said:
prophet said:
JrChurch said:
[size=14pt]Psalms 85:6  Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?
The LORD's part in this is?  The reviving of the ground.  Same with IIChron. 7:14 :how to get the curse on their labors removed. 
  Show me where God sent a movement of the people, towards Him.  God sends preachers, prophets, His Word, witnesses, laborers into His harvest. 

I'll start with two: the Exodus and Pentecost.  Seeing as how those are pivotal moments in Scripture (i.e. moments in which all future history, relatively speaking, is hinged), I think that should be sufficient.

I don't know about those two rsc2a.  The Exodus didn't take place until after God sent Moses and Pentecost was a direct result of God sending the Apostles.  I think we would have to agree that God works by His Spirit and Word through humans to influence humans.  It is not the result of the person alone but of God working in them. 

I would agree with that. My point was that you could have the most charismatic leader that ever lived and they could no more start a revival without God than my kid's pet turtle could. In both of these cases, you clearly have actions of God acting as the primary cause for the response that followed, both in the sending and in the actions that followed. In one, you had plagues, a sea parting, and an army destroyed; in the other, you had the Spirit of God coming down from heaven and indwelling His church.

It was definitely more than a "reviving of the ground".

[quote author=graceandtruth]One of the weaknesses and divisive aspects of modern Christianity is that we seem to always create an "either/or" paradigm where an "and/both" paradigm clearly exists in Scripture.[/quote]

Absolutely. But one aspect of this greater weakness in this particular culture (i.e. American Christian fundamentalism) is the idea that people "win" others for Christ or people "win souls" or however you want to word it.

I can tell you how many people will see the face of God because I've won their soul: zero. How many will be there because God (as the cause) used me (as the tool) to display His love and glory as evidenced in the cross? I have no idea.
 
rsc2a said:
graceandtruth said:
rsc2a said:
prophet said:
JrChurch said:
[size=14pt]Psalms 85:6  Wilt thou not revive us again: that thy people may rejoice in thee?
The LORD's part in this is?  The reviving of the ground.  Same with IIChron. 7:14 :how to get the curse on their labors removed. 
  Show me where God sent a movement of the people, towards Him.  God sends preachers, prophets, His Word, witnesses, laborers into His harvest. 

I'll start with two: the Exodus and Pentecost.  Seeing as how those are pivotal moments in Scripture (i.e. moments in which all future history, relatively speaking, is hinged), I think that should be sufficient.

I don't know about those two rsc2a.  The Exodus didn't take place until after God sent Moses and Pentecost was a direct result of God sending the Apostles.  I think we would have to agree that God works by His Spirit and Word through humans to influence humans.  It is not the result of the person alone but of God working in them. 

I would agree with that. My point was that you could have the most charismatic leader that ever lived and they could no more start a revival without God than my kid's pet turtle could. In both of these cases, you clearly have actions of God acting as the primary cause for the response that followed, both in the sending and in the actions that followed. In one, you had plagues, a sea parting, and an army destroyed; in the other, you had the Spirit of God coming down from heaven and indwelling His church.

It was definitely more than a "reviving of the ground".

[quote author=graceandtruth]One of the weaknesses and divisive aspects of modern Christianity is that we seem to always create an "either/or" paradigm where an "and/both" paradigm clearly exists in Scripture.

Absolutely. But one aspect of this greater weakness in this particular culture (i.e. American Christian fundamentalism) is the idea that people "win" others for Christ or people "win souls" or however you want to word it.

I can tell you how many people will see the face of God because I've won their soul: zero. How many will be there because God (as the cause) used me (as the tool) to display His love and glory as evidenced in the cross? I have no idea.
[/quote]

I agree.

How do you deal with the terminology of Proverbs 11:30 which references "winning souls" in the KJV and "capturing souls" in the ESV?
I believe this language is perfectly acceptable when we use it with the understanding that it is God working in and through us to bring about the salvation of others.
What say you? 
 
[quote author=graceandtruth]I agree.

How do you deal with the terminology of Proverbs 11:30 which references "winning souls" in the KJV and "capturing souls" in the ESV?
I believe this language is perfectly acceptable when we use it with the understanding that it is God working in and through us to bring about the salvation of others.
What say you? [/quote]

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise. (Proverbs 11:30 ESV)

The fruit of the righteous... - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control

...is a tree of life... - whose leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations.

...and whoever captures souls... - Let your light so shine before men...

...is wise. - The fear of the LORD is the beginning....



Summary

One who (truthfully) follows Jesus (not their manufactured version of Him) will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. These character traits will be a tool that God uses in the individual to allow him to be an ambassador for Christ. (The Biblical language would be that these tools enable the individual to be a minister of reconciliation on behalf of (and through) God as God reconciles the world to Himself.) By faithfully living for God (as evidenced by said fruit), you will exhibit true wisdom even as others are won over to your / God's cause by your character and behavior.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=graceandtruth]I agree.

How do you deal with the terminology of Proverbs 11:30 which references "winning souls" in the KJV and "capturing souls" in the ESV?
I believe this language is perfectly acceptable when we use it with the understanding that it is God working in and through us to bring about the salvation of others.
What say you?

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise. (Proverbs 11:30 ESV)

The fruit of the righteous... - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control

...is a tree of life... - whose leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations.

...and whoever captures souls... - Let your light so shine before men...

...is wise. - The fear of the LORD is the beginning....



Summary

One who (truthfully) follows Jesus (not their manufactured version of Him) will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. These character traits will be a tool that God uses in the individual to allow him to be an ambassador for Christ. (The Biblical language would be that these tools enable the individual to be a minister of reconciliation on behalf of (and through) God as God reconciles the world to Himself.) By faithfully living for God (as evidenced by said fruit), you will exhibit true wisdom even as others are won over to your / God's cause by your character and behavior.
[/quote]

I don't disagree with your summary.  The purpose of fruit is to prepare the soil to receive the seed.  However, this is not to say that we should never speak to people on the subject of salvation, or that we should not lead them to a point of understanding that they may make a personal decision.  If the purpose of fruit is to prepare the seed, we ought to offer the seed.

I have no problem with the KJV wording of winning souls.  It speaks of the spiritual warfare and bringing another to one's position, standing or side.  The term also speaks to the rescuing of a captive.  This is in line with much other Scripture, as we see terminology about the armor of God and being a good soldier. 

Salvation is a miracle involving all three parts of the God-head.  God chooses to use people to share the Gospel message with other people that they may come to a point of understanding and personal decision of faith.

Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
Binaca Chugger said:
rsc2a said:
[quote author=graceandtruth]I agree.

How do you deal with the terminology of Proverbs 11:30 which references "winning souls" in the KJV and "capturing souls" in the ESV?
I believe this language is perfectly acceptable when we use it with the understanding that it is God working in and through us to bring about the salvation of others.
What say you?

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise. (Proverbs 11:30 ESV)

The fruit of the righteous... - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control

...is a tree of life... - whose leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations.

...and whoever captures souls... - Let your light so shine before men...

...is wise. - The fear of the LORD is the beginning....



Summary

One who (truthfully) follows Jesus (not their manufactured version of Him) will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. These character traits will be a tool that God uses in the individual to allow him to be an ambassador for Christ. (The Biblical language would be that these tools enable the individual to be a minister of reconciliation on behalf of (and through) God as God reconciles the world to Himself.) By faithfully living for God (as evidenced by said fruit), you will exhibit true wisdom even as others are won over to your / God's cause by your character and behavior.

I don't disagree with your summary.  The purpose of fruit is to prepare the soil to receive the seed.  However, this is not to say that we should never speak to people on the subject of salvation, or that we should not lead them to a point of understanding that they may make a personal decision.  If the purpose of fruit is to prepare the seed, we ought to offer the seed.

I have no problem with the KJV wording of winning souls.  It speaks of the spiritual warfare and bringing another to one's position, standing or side.  The term also speaks to the rescuing of a captive.  This is in line with much other Scripture, as we see terminology about the armor of God and being a good soldier. 

Salvation is a miracle involving all three parts of the God-head.  God chooses to use people to share the Gospel message with other people that they may come to a point of understanding and personal decision of faith.

Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16  But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17  So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
[/quote]

Thanks for the reply rsc2a. 

I have to agree with Binaca's addition as well.  This is another "and/both" paradigm that we are tempted to make a "either/or".  We are to lives that reflect the fact that we have been reconciled to God and we are teach people the need to repent and believe the Gospel in order to be reconciled to God and have lives that reflect that they have been reconciled to God.  Either one without the other is not biblical Christianity.

Rsc2a I understand that many really think they are the ones that are winning/capturing souls and this creates a cult of personalities.  I have also noticed that throughout Scripture God speaks in terms that credit us for what He does through us to establish the truth that we are laborers with Christ.  We miss the rich benefits of carefulness, dependence, thankfulness, diligence, etc. that is worked in us when we recognize and serve as laborers with Christ.
 
I have to agree with Binaca's addition as well.  This is another "and/both" paradigm that we are tempted to make a "either/or".  We are to lives that reflect the fact that we have been reconciled to God and we are teach people the need to repent and believe the Gospel in order to be reconciled to God and have lives that reflect that they have been reconciled to God.  Either one without the other is not biblical Christianity.

Rsc2a I understand that many really think they are the ones that are winning/capturing souls and this creates a cult of personalities.  I have also noticed that throughout Scripture God speaks in terms that credit us for what He does through us to establish the truth that we are laborers with Christ.  We miss the rich benefits of carefulness, dependence, thankfulness, diligence, etc. that is worked in us when we recognize and serve as laborers with Christ.

Ditto.
 
Allow me to do a re-direct.

The OP was about revival.  The thread has become a conversation about soul winning.  Most Christians today equate revival with a 3 day meeting, or week long meeting (if they are serious).  They call any regular series of meetings a revival, whether or not revival occurs.  Some zealous Christians call a revival when many people get saved.

Problem:  Neither of these are revivals.

A series of frequent meetings is just that.  You cannot proclaim that revival will come.  Revival is only able to be labeled after the event has occurred.

Numerous people trusting Christ is not a revival, it is an awakening.

To RE-vive, there must have first been spiritual life.  In other words, revival is when back-slidden Christians humbly confess their sin and ask the Lord to renew a right spirit within them.  Revival is Psalms 51.  Revival is Lamentations.

Funny thing.  When you read the biographies and stories of revival from the past, they are not what most churches have on their calendar today.

Pining for America to have revival is wrong.  America is a pagan land.  Praying for God to examine our own lives and search me and try me and show me my sin that I may confess......This is revival.  When a Christian experiences revival in his own life, he will then begin to share with other Christians the peace of God that is found on the other side of the examination and repentance.  When the other Christian yields to the Holy Spirit's pleading to allow this examination and not turn from it......revival is spreading.

But, what would happen in the average church when a Christian brother comes forward and confesses his sin and repentance which is followed by a request of forgiveness by the fellow Christians of the church?  The most typical answer is gossip, condemnation, criticism, scorn and facebook posts.  And thus, revival does not spread.  The pride of some has quenched the fire of the Holy Spirit's work in the lives of others.
 
[quote author=graceandtruth]Thanks for the reply rsc2a. 

I have to agree with Binaca's addition as well.  This is another "and/both" paradigm that we are tempted to make a "either/or".  We are to lives that reflect the fact that we have been reconciled to God and we are teach people the need to repent and believe the Gospel in order to be reconciled to God and have lives that reflect that they have been reconciled to God.  Either one without the other is not biblical Christianity.

Rsc2a I understand that many really think they are the ones that are winning/capturing souls and this creates a cult of personalities.  I have also noticed that throughout Scripture God speaks in terms that credit us for what He does through us to establish the truth that we are laborers with Christ.  We miss the rich benefits of carefulness, dependence, thankfulness, diligence, etc. that is worked in us when we recognize and serve as laborers with Christ.[/quote]

I would agree with both you and Binaca.

My big concern in this culture (American Fundamentalist Christianity) is the part I have underlined, something I think infects many who are not even aware of it. It's part of the numbers-driven performance-based "Christianity" that so many practice.

"How many souls have you won? How many times do you go to church a week? How many chapters of Bible are you reading a week? How often do you walk across hot coals?" -- Some people think they can gauge how far down the road of sanctification one is by how one answers these questions.

I have actually had someone tell me that one shouldn't consider being a pastor until they have at least "won a few souls"...after which, they asked me how many souls I had "won". I asked them what in the world they meant (in a jokingly mocking (i.e. non-offensive) way), and the answer was pretty much, "how many people have you lead down the Romans road and said a prayer for salvation with?" I informed them that we had drastically differing ideas on what salvation was, how it is achieved, and what role who fills...and then told them that their question made absolutely no sense as I understand Scripture. They might as well have asked me what a circle smells like.
 
[quote author=Binaca Chugger]But, what would happen in the average church when a Christian brother comes forward and confesses his sin and repentance which is followed by a request of forgiveness by the fellow Christians of the church?  The most typical answer is gossip, condemnation, criticism, scorn and facebook posts.  And thus, revival does not spread.  The pride of some has quenched the fire of the Holy Spirit's work in the lives of others.[/quote]

+1
 
Binaca Chugger said:
Allow me to do a re-direct.

The OP was about revival.  The thread has become a conversation about soul winning.  Most Christians today equate revival with a 3 day meeting, or week long meeting (if they are serious).  They call any regular series of meetings a revival, whether or not revival occurs.  Some zealous Christians call a revival when many people get saved.

Problem:  Neither of these are revivals.

A series of frequent meetings is just that.  You cannot proclaim that revival will come.  Revival is only able to be labeled after the event has occurred.

Numerous people trusting Christ is not a revival, it is an awakening.

To RE-vive, there must have first been spiritual life.  In other words, revival is when back-slidden Christians humbly confess their sin and ask the Lord to renew a right spirit within them.  Revival is Psalms 51.  Revival is Lamentations.

Funny thing.  When you read the biographies and stories of revival from the past, they are not what most churches have on their calendar today.

Pining for America to have revival is wrong.  America is a pagan land.  Praying for God to examine our own lives and search me and try me and show me my sin that I may confess......This is revival.  When a Christian experiences revival in his own life, he will then begin to share with other Christians the peace of God that is found on the other side of the examination and repentance.  When the other Christian yields to the Holy Spirit's pleading to allow this examination and not turn from it......revival is spreading.

But, what would happen in the average church when a Christian brother comes forward and confesses his sin and repentance which is followed by a request of forgiveness by the fellow Christians of the church?  The most typical answer is gossip, condemnation, criticism, scorn and facebook posts.  And thus, revival does not spread.  The pride of some has quenched the fire of the Holy Spirit's work in the lives of others.

Thanks for the redirect.  I was just thinking that we have totally hijacked this thread.  I agree with you and I would add that a revival of the believers would result in others embracing the Gospel.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=graceandtruth]Thanks for the reply rsc2a. 

I have to agree with Binaca's addition as well.  This is another "and/both" paradigm that we are tempted to make a "either/or".  We are to lives that reflect the fact that we have been reconciled to God and we are teach people the need to repent and believe the Gospel in order to be reconciled to God and have lives that reflect that they have been reconciled to God.  Either one without the other is not biblical Christianity.

Rsc2a I understand that many really think they are the ones that are winning/capturing souls and this creates a cult of personalities.  I have also noticed that throughout Scripture God speaks in terms that credit us for what He does through us to establish the truth that we are laborers with Christ.  We miss the rich benefits of carefulness, dependence, thankfulness, diligence, etc. that is worked in us when we recognize and serve as laborers with Christ.

I would agree with both you and Binaca.

My big concern in this culture (American Fundamentalist Christianity) is the part I have underlined, something I think infects many who are not even aware of it. It's part of the numbers-driven performance-based "Christianity" that so many practice.

"How many souls have you won? How many times do you go to church a week? How many chapters of Bible are you reading a week? How often do you walk across hot coals?" -- Some people think they can gauge how far down the road of sanctification one is by how one answers these questions.

I have actually had someone tell me that one shouldn't consider being a pastor until they have at least "won a few souls"...after which, they asked me how many souls I had "won". I asked them what in the world they meant (in a jokingly mocking (i.e. non-offensive) way), and the answer was pretty much, "how many people have you lead down the Romans road and said a prayer for salvation with?" I informed them that we had drastically differing ideas on what salvation was, how it is achieved, and what role who fills...and then told them that their question made absolutely no sense as I understand Scripture. They might as well have asked me what a circle smells like.
[/quote]

You are hilarious rsc2a.  I have been racking my brain trying to figure out what rsc2a stands for.  So what is it?
 
It was the system login given to me at the first college I attended. I've used it as my internet moniker ever since.
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Binaca Chugger]But, what would happen in the average church when a Christian brother comes forward and confesses his sin and repentance which is followed by a request of forgiveness by the fellow Christians of the church?  The most typical answer is gossip, condemnation, criticism, scorn and facebook posts.  And thus, revival does not spread.  The pride of some has quenched the fire of the Holy Spirit's work in the lives of others.

+1
[/quote]

WHOOOOOOAAAA!

You agreed with me!!??!!  And even gave me a forum AMEN!!!???!!!

;D

It's a early St. Patrick's Day miracle!
 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=graceandtruth]I agree.

How do you deal with the terminology of Proverbs 11:30 which references "winning souls" in the KJV and "capturing souls" in the ESV?
I believe this language is perfectly acceptable when we use it with the understanding that it is God working in and through us to bring about the salvation of others.
What say you?

The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise. (Proverbs 11:30 ESV)

The fruit of the righteous... - love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control

...is a tree of life... - whose leaves are used as medicine to heal the nations.

...and whoever captures souls... - Let your light so shine before men...

...is wise. - The fear of the LORD is the beginning....



Summary

One who (truthfully) follows Jesus (not their manufactured version of Him) will exhibit the fruit of the Spirit. These character traits will be a tool that God uses in the individual to allow him to be an ambassador for Christ. (The Biblical language would be that these tools enable the individual to be a minister of reconciliation on behalf of (and through) God as God reconciles the world to Himself.) By faithfully living for God (as evidenced by said fruit), you will exhibit true wisdom even as others are won over to your / God's cause by your character and behavior.
[/quote]

You mean it's not about door to door soul winning?
 
"The salvation of one soul is worth More than the framing of a Magna Charta of a thousand worlds."
 
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