Preference or Biblical Standard

[rsc2a]

[quote author=PappaBear]I suppose one of the most obnoxious "standards" to us is hair style.  Yet everyone who wants to cry, "foul!" when such issues are brought up ignore the fact that the Bible does have many things to say about hair, dress, what we eat or drink, and whom we marry...[/quote]

To use one example in your list...

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism...

“Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh...

...deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving...

 

[PappaBear]

[quote author=PappaBear]I suppose one of the most obnoxious "standards" to us is hair style.  Yet everyone who wants to cry, "foul!" when such issues are brought up ignore the fact that the Bible does have many things to say about hair, dress, what we eat or drink, and whom we marry...

To use one example in your list...

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism...

“Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh...

...deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving...
[/quote]

Interesting.  Why do you "prooftext" the two passages?  By use of an ellipsis, you selectively dropped from the middle part of Colossians 2:18 all the way to 2:21.  Why?  And in 1Timothy 4, you pick up in the middle of verse 1 and sharply stop before verse 3 is done.  I believe the context of the passage would greatly help your understanding of what is meant.

Okay, you have 2 passages which on their face as you have quoted appear to not allow another to judge us based on food choices and teaches that those who command abstinence from certain foods are deceitful spirits, demons, and insincere liars with seared consciences.  You chose this small portion of my post for your attempted point.  It appears you take issue with my example of food (common to your two related passages).  Are you aware that there is a host of Biblical passages that deal with this one example?

(ESV) 1Cor 8:8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11 And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12 Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.

Paul, in your selected version, seems to judge you a sinner against your brother and also against Christ for eating meat offered to idols, and declares himself a vegan ascetic.  Is he a deceitful spirit, a demon, or an insincere liar with a seared conscience?

(ESV) 1Cor 10:20 No, I imply that what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God. I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. ... 24 Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. ... 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience  ...  32 Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33 just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.

Seems like Paul here, in discussing your chosen example of food, is saying about the same thing I said in my post.  Is this contradictory to your passages?  If so, how do you resolve it? 

Wait ... there's more...

(ESV) Romans 14:15 For if your brother is grieved by what you eat, you are no longer walking in love. [Man, that sounds like he is passing judgment! -- PB] By what you eat, do not destroy the one for whom Christ died. 16 So do not let what you regard as good be spoken of as evil. 17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21 It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.

Dear Brother, I think if taken in its proper context, the weight of scripture will more greatly bear out that we should make choices which unselfishly consider the offense to our brethren that those choices may cause.  Furthermore, our liberty is not completely unlimited.  If you will consider the context of your own passages, continue reading into Col. 3, and linger awhile to consider when you arrive at verses 5-10 to consider that yes, there are some expectations that salvation will make us different and not allow us to so easily blend in with the world.

NOTE:  I am not a proponent of the ESV.  It was used in order to meet this person at their own level and because it better bears out the contrast to be made in his citation of passages in that same version.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=PappaBear]Interesting.  Why do you "prooftext" the two passages?  By use of an ellipsis, you selectively dropped from the middle part of Colossians 2:18 all the way to 2:21.  Why?  And in 1Timothy 4, you pick up in the middle of verse 1 and sharply stop before verse 3 is done.  I believe the context of the passage would greatly help your understanding of what is meant.[/quote]

To specifically point out the sections in question because....

[quote author=PappaBear]Okay, you have 2 passages which on their face as you have quoted appear to not allow another to judge us based on food choices and teaches that those who command abstinence from certain foods are deceitful spirits, demons, and insincere liars with seared consciences.  You chose this small portion of my post for your attempted point.  It appears you take issue with my example of food (common to your two related passages).  Are you aware that there is a host of Biblical passages that deal with this one example?[/quote]

...the context of these two passages don't change the fact what I quoted "on their face". Instead you'd rather spread some gnostic teaching about certain foods being evil (among other examples).

[quote author=PappaBear]...Paul, in your selected version, seems to judge you a sinner against your brother and also against Christ for eating meat offered to idols, and declares himself a vegan ascetic.  Is he a deceitful spirit, a demon, or an insincere liar with a seared conscience?[/quote]

Actually Paul has a problem with using your liberties to offend a weaker brother. My guess is that your understanding of both "offend" and "weaker brother" is far different than mine. (As an aside, Paul also explicitly states in this periscope that if you want to eat meat sacrificed to idols in other contexts, he has no problem with you grabbing the steak sauce.)

[quote author=PappaBear]...Seems like Paul here, in discussing your chosen example of food, is saying about the same thing I said in my post.  Is this contradictory to your passages?  If so, how do you resolve it?  [/quote]

By reading the entire passage where he explicitly states that eating meat is fine? By reading this in light of other passages where he says that we shouldn't let people try to teach us that abstinence from meat is somehow a form of godliness (aka gnosticism)? By reading the words of Jesus where He tells us that it is not what goes into our mouth but what comes out that defiles us?

[quote author=PappaBear]Wait ... there's more...

...Dear Brother, I think if taken in its proper context, the weight of scripture will more greatly bear out that we should make choices which unselfishly consider the offense to our brethren that those choices may cause.  Furthermore, our liberty is not completely unlimited.  If you will consider the context of your own passages, continue reading into Col. 3, and linger awhile to consider when you arrive at verses 5-10 to consider that yes, there are some expectations that salvation will make us different and not allow us to so easily blend in with the world.[/quote]

I absolutely agree. You do realize that "offense" doesn't mean ignoring chains that some self-righteous modern-day Pharisee would attempt to place on our shoulders, right? (As another aside, I also think our definition of "world" is also far different. My version wouldn't include ribeye steak, shrimp, dreadlocks or drums.)

[quote author=PappaBear]NOTE:  I am not a proponent of the ESV.  It was used in order to meet this person at their own level and because it better bears out the contrast to be made in his citation of passages in that same version.[/quote]

Lovely.  :

 

[Izdaari]

I, OTOH, am a proponent of the ESV. I think it's the most literal modern version with actual good English. And it preserves the KJV "sounds like bible" literary feel without the archaisms.

 

[PappaBear]

Thank you for participating in this little exercise demonstrating that antinomians have a very low view of scripture.  Attempts to flee to different versions are vain, because when shown their eisegesis directly contradicts scriptural statements in the same contextual passages, even in their version(s) of choice, instead of resolving such conflicts of reason, they merely disregard them by heaping yet more contradictory spooftexts into a discussion.  To the licentious, proper scriptural interpretation using context, aim, or word definition is far too constraining and limiting to them.

In short, if you isolate certain phrases or ideas from the words around them, you can claim just about anything you want to be true.  But to the Christian, scripture is to be rightly divided; not thin-sliced, buried in the condiment of personal opinion, and served on a crunchy sesame-seed bun of cheap shots and ad hominem.

*Hat tip </)

 

[Recovering IFB]

“There are some who have no understanding to hear the truth of liberty and insist upon their goodness as means for salvation. These people you must resist, do the very opposite, and offend them boldly lest by their impious views they drag many with them into error. For the sake of the liberty of the faith do other things which they regarded as the greatest of sins….Use your freedom constantly and consistently in the sight of and despite the tyrants and the stubborn so that they also may learn that they are impious, that their laws and works are of no avail for righteousness, and that they had no right to set them up.”           

Martin Luther

 

[Castor Muscular]

“There are some who have no understanding to hear the truth of liberty and insist upon their goodness as means for salvation. These people you must resist, do the very opposite, and offend them boldly lest by their impious views they drag many with them into error. For the sake of the liberty of the faith do other things which they regarded as the greatest of sins….Use your freedom constantly and consistently in the sight of and despite the tyrants and the stubborn so that they also may learn that they are impious, that their laws and works are of no avail for righteousness, and that they had no right to set them up.”           

Martin Luther

Love this quote.

 

[Ransom]

...for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Ay, there's the rub, isn't it? Not only are we accountable to our pastors to obey their biblical teaching, but in turn they are accountable for what they teach. God will judge teachers with greater strictness (Jas. 3:1), so it would behoove the tinpot mannagods to take more care that their "standards" are, truly, biblical.

Or why pay them any heed at all? Paul said, "Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ" (1 Cor. 11:1). There's a pretty strong implication there that if he is not following Christ, then we shouldn't be following him. Someone who imposes an additional burden on the church above and beyond what God himself demands, is not being Christlike.

 

[Recovering IFB]

Dear Brother, I think if taken in its proper context, the weight of scripture will more greatly bear out that we should make choices which unselfishly consider the offense to our brethren that those choices may cause.  Furthermore, our liberty is not completely unlimited.  If you will consider the context of your own passages, continue reading into Col. 3, and linger awhile to consider when you arrive at verses 5-10 to consider that yes, there are some expectations that salvation will make us different and not allow us to so easily blend in with the world.

NOTE:  I am not a proponent of the ESV.  It was used in order to meet this person at their own level and because it better bears out the contrast to be made in his citation of passages in that same version.

Or we can simply educate the weaker brother in his liberty, rather than be ruled by "believers" who really are not offended but rather have not see liberty truly enjoyed, because Christians are not supposed to be having fun, right?

 

[PappaBear]

“There are some who have no understanding to hear the truth of liberty and insist upon their goodness as means for salvation. These people you must resist, do the very opposite, and offend them boldly lest by their impious views they drag many with them into error. For the sake of the liberty of the faith do other things which they regarded as the greatest of sins….Use your freedom constantly and consistently in the sight of and despite the tyrants and the stubborn so that they also may learn that they are impious, that their laws and works are of no avail for righteousness, and that they had no right to set them up.”           

Martin Luther

I see that you can quote (and misapply) Martin Luther. Do you equate patristic writings with scripture?  How very Catholic that would be.  Did you not notice that Bro. Luther was addressing the errors of the Romanist Church regarding works salvation in insisting upon "their goodness as means for salvation" or "their laws and works are of no avail for righteousness"?  This is very much like those who insist on misapplying Colossians 2 towards New Testament Commands instead of rightly to the errant demands of heathen Gentile idolatry.

Within the sacred pages of holy writ, holiness, righteousness and godliness are viewed as POSITIVE traits, not negative ones.  Although good works are never considered salvatory (Eph 2:8,9), they are promoted as something that saved people should do (Eph 2:10).  But alas, I refer to the scriptures. Perhaps that is unfamiliar territory? I do not know of a Separatist or Baptist yet who claims salvation is by "standards and convictions," but many who will scripturally insist that saved people should live like they are saved.

Or we can simply educate the weaker brother in his liberty, rather than be ruled by "believers" who really are not offended but rather have not see [sic] liberty truly enjoyed, because Christians are not supposed to be having fun, right?

Christians are supposed to have joy.  Christians are NOT supposed to be enjoying sin or disregarding their brother.  I would suggest you read over the scripture passages again and see what the LORD demanded of us through the apostle Paul.  It does not appear to me to recommend we do whatever we want with disregard of the weaker brother in vain hope that he should "just grow up!"  That kind of attitude destroys instead of edifies.

Can't find the passages?  Here, let me help you with a few. 

Romans 14:21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Romans 15:1  We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
            15:2  Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
1Cor 8:11  And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
          12  But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
          13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

It should be recollected that Paul was delivering the Apostolic ordinances of Acts 15 to the Gentiles so that he did not favor eating meat sacrificed to idols, but was teaching them to go counter to the culture they grew up in and were saved out of.  Otherwise, you have a direct contradiction making Paul out to be a liar and hypocrite. Furthermore, those ordinances were not rescinded, but applied by the LORD some 30 years after the death of Paul in His letters to the Churches in Revelation (Rev 2:14 & 20) In fact, by your above statement about educating the weaker brother about their "liberty" you seem to be falling into the same fault of the Pergamum and Thyatira Churches.  Notice that in both those churches there is teaching going on of the kind you advise.

[quote Author=Christ speaking to the Church at Pergamos and the Church at Thyatira]Rev 2:14  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.[/quote]

I suggest it is not such a wise thing to 1) disregard explicitly stated scriptures, nor 2) to so willfully contradict Christ.

 

[Castor Muscular]

... because Christians are not supposed to be having fun, right?

This Scripture came to mind when I saw your statement.

James 1:2-4

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

So, in other words, the way Christians have fun is to fall into divers temptations.... you know, like going to a strip club or something. 

 

[Recovering IFB]

“There are some who have no understanding to hear the truth of liberty and insist upon their goodness as means for salvation. These people you must resist, do the very opposite, and offend them boldly lest by their impious views they drag many with them into error. For the sake of the liberty of the faith do other things which they regarded as the greatest of sins….Use your freedom constantly and consistently in the sight of and despite the tyrants and the stubborn so that they also may learn that they are impious, that their laws and works are of no avail for righteousness, and that they had no right to set them up.”           

Martin Luther

I see that you can quote (and misapply) Martin Luther. Do you equate patristic writings with scripture?  How very Catholic that would be.  Did you not notice that Bro. Luther was addressing the errors of the Romanist Church regarding works salvation in insisting upon "their goodness as means for salvation" or "their laws and works are of no avail for righteousness"?  This is very much like those who insist on misapplying Colossians 2 towards New Testament Commands instead of rightly to the errant demands of heathen Gentile idolatry.

Within the sacred pages of holy writ, holiness, righteousness and godliness are viewed as POSITIVE traits, not negative ones.  Although good works are never considered salvatory (Eph 2:8,9), they are promoted as something that saved people should do (Eph 2:10).  But alas, I refer to the scriptures. Perhaps that is unfamiliar territory? I do not know of a Separatist or Baptist yet who claims salvation is by "standards and convictions," but many who will scripturally insist that saved people should live like they are saved.

Or we can simply educate the weaker brother in his liberty, rather than be ruled by "believers" who really are not offended but rather have not see [sic] liberty truly enjoyed, because Christians are not supposed to be having fun, right?

Christians are supposed to have joy.  Christians are NOT supposed to be enjoying sin or disregarding their brother.  I would suggest you read over the scripture passages again and see what the LORD demanded of us through the apostle Paul.  It does not appear to me to recommend we do whatever we want with disregard of the weaker brother in vain hope that he should "just grow up!"  That kind of attitude destroys instead of edifies.

Can't find the passages?  Here, let me help you with a few. 

Romans 14:21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
Romans 15:1  We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
            15:2  Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
1Cor 8:11  And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
          12  But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
          13  Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

It should be recollected that Paul was delivering the Apostolic ordinances of Acts 15 to the Gentiles so that he did not favor eating meat sacrificed to idols, but was teaching them to go counter to the culture they grew up in and were saved out of.  Otherwise, you have a direct contradiction making Paul out to be a liar and hypocrite. Furthermore, those ordinances were not rescinded, but applied by the LORD some 30 years after the death of Paul in His letters to the Churches in Revelation (Rev 2:14 & 20) In fact, by your above statement about educating the weaker brother about their "liberty" you seem to be falling into the same fault of the Pergamum and Thyatira Churches.  Notice that in both those churches there is teaching going on of the kind you advise.

[quote Author=Christ speaking to the Church at Pergamos and the Church at Thyatira]Rev 2:14  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

I suggest it is not such a wise thing to 1) disregard explicitly stated scriptures, nor 2) to so willfully contradict Christ.
[/quote]

Collisians 2? Lets see!(copied from phone., didn't edit)
2 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

Spiritual Fullness in Christ

6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces[a] of this world rather than on Christ.

9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[e]

Freedom From Human Rules

16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you. Such a person also goes into great detail about what they have seen; they are puffed up with idle notions by their unspiritual mind. 19 They have lost connection with the head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the elemental spiritual forces of this world, why, as though you still belonged to the world, do you submit to its rules: 21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”? 22 These rules, which have to do with things that are all destined to perish with use, are based on merely human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

Can't see where I'm wrong about liberties here,
Like I said the fact remains IFBXers don't believe in soul liberty and don't want to see others living a joyful life enjoying Gods gifts to us(that's why I quoted Luther)

 

[Just me]

... because Christians are not supposed to be having fun, right?

This Scripture came to mind when I saw your statement.

James 1:2-4

My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; 3. Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. 4. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Wow!! Pepé Le Pew is up to three post and has not deleted them yet.

Living on the edge I guess

 

[Recovering IFB]

I see that you can quote (and misapply) Martin Luther. Do you equate patristic writings with scripture?  How very Catholic that would be.  Did you not notice that Bro. Luther was addressing the errors of the Romanist Church IFBXer church regarding works salvation in insisting upon "their goodness as means for salvation" or "their laws and works are of no avail for righteousness"? 

Fixed

  This is very much like those who insist on misapplying Colossians 2 towards New Testament Commands instead of rightly to the errant demands of heathen Gentile idolatry.

See previous post

  But alas, I refer to the scriptures. Perhaps that is unfamiliar territory? 

Seems like your unfamiliar with Galatians....

Christians are supposed to have joy.  Christians are NOT supposed to be enjoying sin or disregarding their brother.

Telling that when some say liberty, your mind goes to sin.......

I would suggest you read over the scripture passages again and see what the LORD demanded of us through the apostle Paul.

Looks like you disregarded Colossians 2

  It does not appear to me to recommend we do whatever we want with disregard of the weaker brother in vain hope that he should "just grow up!"  That kind of attitude destroys instead of edifies.

Nobody here has said that, but more along the lines of education,....you know, edify

I suggest it is not such a wise thing to 1) disregard explicitly stated scriptures, nor 2) to so willfully contradict Christ.

which you did in Colossions 2