Playing the Pharisee Card

[brianb]

I would suggest that she just wait outside for them in her car (unless perhaps it's too cold)  she would still have to go in there to help them get - if they're smashed they'll be not able to walk straight. They are not going to care whether she's with them or not once they are all drunk. If I was her I'd be uncomfortable around people in that state - not just her friends but the other people in the bar. It gets too noisy.

 

[Castor Muscular]

Christ wasn't hanging out with those people in order to partake of their lifestyle and customs

I'll say this one last time -- according to your own story, the girl wasn't there to partake of their lifestyle and customs, either.  Hence Prov 23:20 does not apply.  And neither does your conclusion about her testimony. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Christ wasn't hanging out with those people in order to partake of their lifestyle and customs

I'll say this one last time -- according to your own story, the girl wasn't there to partake of their lifestyle and customs, either.  Hence Prov 23:20 does not apply.  And neither does your conclusion about her testimony.

There's an elephant in the room that you just want to hide.  The conclusion of the first (and only) two commentators I cited was that hangin' round those sort of folk ain't wise.  That's one of the things I warned of from the beginning.  You can believe that a person's testimony won't suffer as a result of their companionship, but that's just foolish and naive.  Proverbs 23:20 certainly does apply in several of the ways that I mentioned throughout the thread, and for you to say that it doesn't flies in the face of any reasonable conclusion.  If you you want to say that some people won't have negative results from attending such activities regularly, and that you'd advise them to travel that road, more power to you, but I think Scripture would say that such things should be given grave consideration before entering into lightly.

 

[rsc2a]

Alayman -

Are you saying I should avoid the church potluck?

 

[BandGuy]

The elephant is a pharisaic drama queen named Alayman who doesn't know how  to interpret Scripture.

 

[BandGuy]

I think we should avoid going to most Churches which are full of sinful hypocrites who continue daily in their sins without being disciplined in any manner as long as they are good tithers.

 

[Biker]

I would suggest that she just wait outside for them in her car (unless perhaps it's too cold)  she would still have to go in there to help them get - if they're smashed they'll be not able to walk straight. They are not going to care whether she's with them or not once they are all drunk. If I was her I'd be uncomfortable around people in that state - not just her friends but the other people in the bar. It gets too noisy.

Good thinking

 

[BandGuy]

Here's a thought for Alayman:  Stop enabling us sinners with your presence here and go join a monastery along with StaveoffZombies where there is no chance whatsoever of tarnishing your reputation and testimony with all the other pharisees of the world.

 

[Castor Muscular]

There's an elephant in the room that you just want to hide.  The conclusion of the first (and only) two commentators I cited was that hangin' round those sort of folk ain't wise.  That's one of the things I warned of from the beginning. 

Hide?  I have addressed that multiple times.  According to your story, she wasn't there to hang around with them.  She was there to provide a safe way home.  If you want to change her motivation to be hanging with drunks, you have to go back and change your story. 

You can believe that a person's testimony won't suffer as a result of their companionship, but that's just foolish and naive. 

It will affect her testimony among Pharisees, but that requires that they impose an untruth upon the situation.  They have to add the impression that she's there to keep company with drunkards.  Therefore, the damage to her testimony would be based on a lie -- the lie in the Pharisee's head, and in the head of anyone else who judges her based on appearances. 

Jesus gives the perfect example of how to deal with such things.  Jesus didn't care about what lies other people concocted about his motivation for being with "sinners".  Following his example, neither will I.  And I hope, neither will she.  Given the confines of your story, I think her testimony is stellar.  She is performing an act of caring and love, which is Christ-like.

Proverbs 23:20 certainly does apply in several of the ways that I mentioned throughout the thread, and for you to say that it doesn't flies in the face of any reasonable conclusion.  If you you want to say that some people won't have negative results from attending such activities regularly, and that you'd advise them to travel that road, more power to you, but I think Scripture would say that such things should be given grave consideration before entering into lightly.

Proverbs 23:20 warns against becoming a drunkard and a glutton because you hang with drunkards and gluttons.  That is the negative result that might arise from going to bars.  However:

1.  She's not going there to hang with drunkards and gluttons.  She's going there to NOT drink and thus provide a safe avenue home. 

2.  Proverbs 23:20 is not warning about how bad it might look if you are seen with drunkards and gluttons.  That would be your eisegesis, and perhaps the eisegesis of some commentators.  And such an interpretation is contradicted by the behavior of Jesus, Himself.

Perhaps you, yourself are weak, and projecting this weakness upon others?  I am not opposed to alcohol in moderation, yet I know I could easily abstain and be a designated driver as often as I wish without being drawn into drunkenness.  Are you too weak to do the same?  If so, then that role is not for you.  Better to leave it to women like the one in the story. 

 

[Castor Muscular]

Alayman -

Are you saying I should avoid the church potluck?

LOL -- I should say so.  Many a glutton there. 

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]Proverbs 23:20 warns against becoming a drunkard and a glutton because you hang with drunkards and gluttons.  That is the negative result that might arise from going to bars. [/quote]

I'd also add that this passage in Proverbs is a proverb, not a command. Of course, there is a command in Deuteronomy about strong drink and parties....

 

[Castor Muscular]

I would suggest that she just wait outside for them in her car (unless perhaps it's too cold)  she would still have to go in there to help them get - if they're smashed they'll be not able to walk straight. They are not going to care whether she's with them or not once they are all drunk. If I was her I'd be uncomfortable around people in that state - not just her friends but the other people in the bar. It gets too noisy.

On a personal note, I'm very uncomfortable around alcoholics.  In my limited experience around them, they get a different kind of "drunk" than a non-alcoholic.  I couldn't really be friends with those kinds of alcoholic drinkers, so I can't see how I'd ever be in the position to be their designated driver.  But if I were somehow put in that position, I'd wait in the car. 

I have some non-alcoholic friends and relatives who drank more than I ever would (I don't live anywhere near them anymore, hence the past tense), but they remained rational and fun to be around.  I could stay in the bar with them, if they went to a bar.  You're right about the noise, though.  The noise would bother me, if it was a noisy bar. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=Castor Muscular]Proverbs 23:20 warns against becoming a drunkard and a glutton because you hang with drunkards and gluttons.  That is the negative result that might arise from going to bars.

I'd also add that this passage in Proverbs is a proverb, not a command. Of course, there is a command in Deuteronomy about strong drink and parties....
[/quote]


Duly noted that you allow for BandGuy's "gracious" responses. 

Hypocrite.

Hide?  I have addressed that multiple times.  According to your story, she wasn't there to hang around with them.  She was there to provide a safe way home.  If you want to change her motivation to be hanging with drunks, you have to go back and change your story. 

The Proverbs passage does not contextually supply a motive for why the admonition is given, other than the inference as so much of wisdom literature claims, that such behavior can be spiritually contagious (evil communications corrupt good manners).  So despite your protestations, the verse has applicability to the warning of not going as habit to such places.

It will affect her testimony among Pharisees, but that requires that they impose an untruth upon the situation.  They have to add the impression that she's there to keep company with drunkards.  Therefore, the damage to her testimony would be based on a lie -- the lie in the Pharisee's head, and in the head of anyone else who judges her based on appearances. 

No, there's no lie that it is questionable to make it a habit to be in the company of sinners as you enable them.

Proverbs 23:20 warns against becoming a drunkard and a glutton because you hang with drunkards and gluttons.  That is the negative result that might arise from going to bars.  However:

1.  She's not going there to hang with drunkards and gluttons.  She's going there to NOT drink and thus provide a safe avenue home. 

2.  Proverbs 23:20 is not warning about how bad it might look if you are seen with drunkards and gluttons.  That would be your eisegesis, and perhaps the eisegesis of some commentators.  And such an interpretation is contradicted by the behavior of Jesus, Himself.

Perhaps you, yourself are weak, and projecting this weakness upon others?  I am not opposed to alcohol in moderation, yet I know I could easily abstain and be a designated driver as often as I wish without being drawn into drunkenness.  Are you too weak to do the same?  If so, then that role is not for you.  Better to leave it to women like the one in the story. 

Believe what you will, but I could cite other commentators who say the same thing regarding this passage and the concept of separation from such revelry, like this....


It is a Christian's duty not only to abstain from what is grossly wicked, but also from those things that are generally the occasions of sin, or carry the appearance of evil. Excess of wine and immoderate feasting are forbidden as well as lust and idolatry.

but your apriori bias allows you to only see what you want to see.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Duly noted that you allow for BandGuy's "gracious" responses. 

Hypocrite.[/quote]

Please stop using words you don't know the meaning of.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]The Proverbs passage does not contextually supply a motive for why the admonition is given, other than the inference as so much of wisdom literature claims, that such behavior can be spiritually contagious (evil communications corrupt good manners).  So despite your protestations, the verse has applicability to the warning of not going as habit to such places.[/quote]

Places like the church picnic and the buffet restaurant?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]

It will affect her testimony among Pharisees, but that requires that they impose an untruth upon the situation.  They have to add the impression that she's there to keep company with drunkards.  Therefore, the damage to her testimony would be based on a lie -- the lie in the Pharisee's head, and in the head of anyone else who judges her based on appearances. 

No, there's no lie that it is questionable to make it a habit to be in the company of sinners as you enable them.[/quote]

There is no lie that allowing someone to be killed or to kill others in the name of "tough love" is about the least Christ-like response one could possibly have. Granted, if one cannot even state plainly that they "desire that none should perish", it's pretty much to be expected. Definitely a Pharisee.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Believe what you will, but I could cite other commentators who say the same thing regarding this passage and the concept of separation from such revelry, like this....


It is a Christian's duty not only to abstain from what is grossly wicked, but also from those things that are generally the occasions of sin, or carry the appearance of evil. Excess of wine and immoderate feasting are forbidden as well as lust and idolatry.

but your apriori bias allows you to only see what you want to see.[/quote]

Hope you avoid the church picnic and the buffet restaurant? (Of course, that doesn't even account for the fact that your commentator was just plain wrong about "abstain from those things that...carry the appearance of evil". Jesus Himself wouldn't even make it based on this understanding according to the *cough, cough* Pharisees.)

 

[Castor Muscular]

The Proverbs passage does not contextually supply a motive for why the admonition is given

It most certainly does, and it's contained in the verse you left out.

20 Do not join those who drink too much wine
    or gorge themselves on meat,
21 for [BECAUSE] drunkards and gluttons become poor,
    and drowsiness clothes them in rags.

In other words, don't join drunkards and gluttons, lest you become one and suffer the consequences. 

Your commentary quotes mean nothing.  Commentary comes with the agenda of the one writing the commentary.  Scripture is scripture, and this scripture is very easy to understand on its own. 

 

[BandGuy]

Duly noted that you allow for BandGuy's "gracious" responses. 

Hypocrite.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The Proverbs passage does not contextually supply a motive for why the admonition is given

It most certainly does, and it's contained in the verse you left out.

20 Do not join those who drink too much wine
    or gorge themselves on meat,
21 for [BECAUSE] drunkards and gluttons become poor,
    and drowsiness clothes them in rags.

In other words, don't join drunkards and gluttons, lest you become one and suffer the consequences. 

So when I said that it wasn't wise for a person to frequent such establishments for spiritual and physical reasons, and that injunction is backed by Scripture, which you just agreed to, how is that improper Biblical advice?  In other words, poor testimony (as agreed to by many theologians and preachers of the past, Spurgeon for instance) isn't the only reason to avoid such places, which is what I've said from early on in the conversation.

Your commentary quotes mean nothing.  Commentary comes with the agenda of the one writing the commentary.  Scripture is scripture, and this scripture is very easy to understand on its own.

Commentary quotes are only useful to you when they favor your argument?  Gotcha.

<self-portrait snipped>

Stick to posting your childhood pics, it's more intelligent than anything else you'd contribute.

Please stop using words you don't know the meaning of.

  Sure thing, hypocrite, as soon as you mete out equal righteous judgment to folks on your side of the aisle.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]So when I said that it wasn't wise for a person to frequent such establishments for spiritual and physical reasons, and that injunction is backed by Scripture, which you just agreed to, how is that improper Biblical advice?  In other words, poor testimony (as agreed to by many theologians and preachers of the past, Spurgeon for instance) isn't the only reason to avoid such places, which is what I've said from early on in the conversation.[/quote]

hehe...

1 - Notice the part I underlined.
2 - From your OP: Call libertine behaviors such as cigarette smoking what it is, and you guessed it...you will have the Pharisee Card played.
3 - ...I intend to smoke a good cigar to the glory of God before I go to bed to-night... - Charles Spurgeon

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Sure thing, hypocrite, as soon as you mete out equal righteous judgment to folks on your side of the aisle.[/quote]

I've shown you this before:

hy

 

[Castor Muscular]

Commentary quotes are only useful to you when they favor your argument?  Gotcha.

Says the person who cherry-picked commentary to support his misinterpretation to the person who did not use commentary at all. 

 

[ALAYMAN]

Commentary quotes are only useful to you when they favor your argument?  Gotcha.

Says the person who cherry-picked commentary to support his misinterpretation to the person who did not use commentary at all.

Regardless of commentary opinions, the verse says don't hang with drunkards because of the potential to become like them.