One of the Good Ones - Sold His Soul

[Binaca Chugger]

We look back at our days of HACkerdom with fond memories and, probably, some regret.  As we have heard many stories about abusive leaders, sin and crime that has gone unchecked, we feel a sense of frustration for all of the sin that was around us, especially by those in authority.  However, there were always some of the "Good Ones."  Most of us can look back to our days at HAC and remember a staff member that had a positive influence in our lives.  These are the people that we claimed were "real."  They really understood what Christianity was, they were not involved in scandal and they helped us grow to be better servants in the ministry, as the school had originally intended for all of its staff to do.

Here is my question:  If "some of the good ones" knew about the junk that was going on in the place, why did they stay?  I understand that not everyone on staff fully understood the total story.  I understand that they felt powerless to do anything to correct the issues.  But, why did they stay?  Did these just look the other way in order to continue in their personal, world-changing ministry?  Is it right to continue in a ministry where you have a good opportunity to minister to people, even though you know that the system you are a part of is corrupt?

Maybe this is akin to the independent movement that separating from the SBC a few decades back.  Maybe some felt that they could reform the system from within.  However, these same people were constantly bombarded with JH's and JRR's doctrine that you cannot change a system from within.  I also find it intriguing that many of those who left staff went to other institutions that were acting in the same manner.

So, are they "One of the Good Ones,"  or did they "Sell Their Soul," for position and the sake of the ministry?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

We look back at our days of HACkerdom with fond memories and, probably, some regret.  As we have heard many stories about abusive leaders, sin and crime that has gone unchecked, we feel a sense of frustration for all of the sin that was around us, especially by those in authority.  However, there were always some of the "Good Ones."  Most of us can look back to our days at HAC and remember a staff member that had a positive influence in our lives.  These are the people that we claimed were "real."  They really understood what Christianity was, they were not involved in scandal and they helped us grow to be better servants in the ministry, as the school had originally intended for all of its staff to do.

Here is my question:  If "some of the good ones" knew about the junk that was going on in the place, why did they stay?  I understand that not everyone on staff fully understood the total story.  I understand that they felt powerless to do anything to correct the issues.  But, why did they stay?  Did these just look the other way in order to continue in their personal, world-changing ministry?  Is it right to continue in a ministry where you have a good opportunity to minister to people, even though you know that the system you are a part of is corrupt?

Maybe this is akin to the independent movement that separating from the SBC a few decades back.  Maybe some felt that they could reform the system from within.  However, these same people were constantly bombarded with JH's and JRR's doctrine that you cannot change a system from within.  I also find it intriguing that many of those who left staff went to other institutions that were acting in the same manner.

So, are they "One of the Good Ones,"  or did they "Sell Their Soul," for position and the sake of the ministry?

I think it comes down to fear. Fear of losing personal ministry influence. Fear of losing friendships, sometimes of a lifetime. Fear of losing a job. Fear of causing conflict in marriage. Fear of exposing evil to their children (which would mean an admisison they were fooled). Fear of making the decision to/if/when to walk away.

I think there are many various reasons but most if not all are anchored in some kind of fear.

 

[fishinnut]

I think it comes down to fear. Fear of losing personal ministry influence. Fear of losing friendships, sometimes of a lifetime. Fear of losing a job. Fear of causing conflict in marriage. Fear of exposing evil to their children (which would mean an admisison they were fooled). Fear of making the decision to/if/when to walk away.

I think there are many various reasons but most if not all are anchored in some kind of fear.

Good thoughts. Not many real Daniels left out there.

I have experienced the loss as underlined above. But it was worth it to do so because I did not lose my kids in the process, they are all well into their adult years & living all out for Jesus.

Another thought is that in the IFB too often there were (admit it or not) hero's made off leaders. Few are willing to confront their hero/leader with contradictions of major Biblical truth or violations thereof according to what Matthew 18:15-17 teaches & work it out or walk away, no matter who their made-man hero is or how big the pedestal they have placed them on.

 

[RAIDER]

We look back at our days of HACkerdom with fond memories and, probably, some regret.  As we have heard many stories about abusive leaders, sin and crime that has gone unchecked, we feel a sense of frustration for all of the sin that was around us, especially by those in authority.  However, there were always some of the "Good Ones."  Most of us can look back to our days at HAC and remember a staff member that had a positive influence in our lives.  These are the people that we claimed were "real."  They really understood what Christianity was, they were not involved in scandal and they helped us grow to be better servants in the ministry, as the school had originally intended for all of its staff to do.

Here is my question:  If "some of the good ones" knew about the junk that was going on in the place, why did they stay?  I understand that not everyone on staff fully understood the total story.  I understand that they felt powerless to do anything to correct the issues.  But, why did they stay?  Did these just look the other way in order to continue in their personal, world-changing ministry?  Is it right to continue in a ministry where you have a good opportunity to minister to people, even though you know that the system you are a part of is corrupt?

Maybe this is akin to the independent movement that separating from the SBC a few decades back.  Maybe some felt that they could reform the system from within.  However, these same people were constantly bombarded with JH's and JRR's doctrine that you cannot change a system from within.  I also find it intriguing that many of those who left staff went to other institutions that were acting in the same manner.

So, are they "One of the Good Ones,"  or did they "Sell Their Soul," for position and the sake of the ministry?

I have had these same thoughts the past several years.  If it was as obvious and rampid as it is now reported, why did they stay?  Why did no one cause a "big stink"?  Perhaps many of the people looked at it as hearsay.  Perhaps there was little proof of anything.  It continues to baffle me.

 

[Norefund]

Who would you make a "big stink" to? The deacon board? (Take the deacon off the board and use the board on him) The Pastor - if he didn't see it, it didn't happen. An assistant pastor - name one powerful enough to make any difference. There wasn't a conference to take the complaint to - We are IFB, and proud of it. And look at what happened to those who finally went public. Again, use George Godfrey as an example.

 

[Baptist City Holdout]

On the run here, but felt burdened to comment. Think fear does have a lot to do with it. After 5 years at an IFBX we had to leave. By doing so, I the former pastor became the one with the reigns in my future of IFB employment. Therefore for ten years after that we had nothing to do with Baptist life. I'll say it for myself, it took guts to leave the movement I had been a part of all my life. All the references, contacts, you name it. Twenty years later I met the former pastor and just told him I had no hard feelings, didn't want anything between us - though we hardly see each other. The response, "I don't even remember what it had to do with, seems like something about your loyaly to me." That really told a lot!

Anyway, to speak out is to burn the bridge. Until one musters the guts to do that, they're trapped. Some people never get the nerve to do it. For others, it takes years. For many, it never happens.

I think of the staff and faculty at HAC that I still love and respect. It is hard to reconcile all my thoughts about the situation. I hold some there to be true, genuine, humble Christians.

Like the first post, I can't quite explain it all!

 

[sword]

Who would you make a "big stink" to? The deacon board? (Take the deacon off the board and use the board on him) The Pastor - if he didn't see it, it didn't happen. An assistant pastor - name one powerful enough to make any difference. There wasn't a conference to take the complaint to - We are IFB, and proud of it. And look at what happened to those who finally went public. Again, use George Godfrey as an example.

I seem to recall a workers session at either pastor school or Y.C. when JS himself recommended you take any church impropriety you find directly to your pastor.

He also said if you know your pastor is involved in moral or financial impropriety then you should contact JS directly & he would know how to handle it.

 

[fishinnut]

I seem to recall a workers session at either pastor school or Y.C. when JS himself recommended you take any church impropriety you find directly to your pastor.

He also said if you know your pastor is involved in moral or financial impropriety then you should contact JS directly & he would know how to handle it.

What......was Junior Jack making himself the Baptist Pope?

Yea.....he knew what to do if there was impropriety. :

 

[Binaca Chugger]

The response I am getting is - fear.  Fear of losing wealth (as if HAC payed anything more than minimum wage).  Fear of losing position (and the subsequent power and prestige).  Fear of losing praise of men (friends, authority figure, etc).

What about the Fear of the Lord?

Why were so many so willing to turn a blind eye?  Is this the same phenomenon we see in public, when abuse or crime is happening in public and so few are willing to step in?

Again, maybe the lower rank employees didn't really know what was going on.  But what about those that did - and stayed?  Isn't this the proverbial "selling out?"

 

[Lone Ranger]

Along the way there were some who left quietly and found another place of service where God continues to bless their ministry. One of those who comes to mind is Dr J Arnold Fair, who has continued to pastor in Angola, IN for close to 30 yrs now. Dr Fair left in '76 before many of the improprieties were known, and I often wondered what he knew or suspected.

 

[Norefund]

Remember, the fear of the Lord was directly tied to the fear of God's man - who seemingly was the conduit by which God meted out instruction, privilege, praise, and condemnation. Independent thought was not exactly encouraged. Also, don't forget how powerful the message was. We were saving America. If there were a few little niggling troublesome indiscretions, they were meaningless in the overwhelming battle against Satan, Communism, Liberalism, and any other number of incursions against Christianity, Truth, Justice and the American way. How dare anyone rebel against the King during this mighty struggle!

Yes, people sold out.  Wendell and Marlene Evans may be the  biggest example of sell outs, in my opinion. I mean, really, who uses the knowledge of statutory rape of their daughter by the youth pastor and son of the pastor to barter their way to greater power and privilege?

Corruption bred corruption. It probably always has and probably always will.

The response I am getting is - fear.  Fear of losing wealth (as if HAC payed anything more than minimum wage).  Fear of losing position (and the subsequent power and prestige).  Fear of losing praise of men (friends, authority figure, etc).

What about the Fear of the Lord?

Why were so many so willing to turn a blind eye?  Is this the same phenomenon we see in public, when abuse or crime is happening in public and so few are willing to step in?

Again, maybe the lower rank employees didn't really know what was going on.  But what about those that did - and stayed?  Isn't this the proverbial "selling out?"

 

[brainisengaged]

They are still trying to use fear. Pastor Wilkerson is away, speaking at a conference in California and visiting the mission team in Thailand. February has been decreed the month of the family, so in pastor's absence, men have been asked to speak who have successfully raised great families. (Successful meaning - their children all serve the Lord full-time and draw their paychecks from a church.)

All well and good, we heard from Bob Hooker for the Sunday morning service and then Pete Cowling for the Sunday evening services.

They were each pretty much as would be expected. Eddie Lapina always gives his own wrap-up after a guest speaker is finished. In his Sunday night wrap-up after Dr. Cowling, he said (as nearly as I can remember to word it exactly):

"Some of you have really been thrown by the events of the past year at this church. In my counseling I notice those that have been thrown the most are the young married couples. You've never had to go through anything like this before, you've never had anything bad happen. Now it has and you are shaken. I talked to a young couple just last week who decided they were going off to a non-denominational church. You know, no rules and no standards. It might seem like an easier way. But, I GUARANTEE, if you do that your children will be affected and your grandchildren will not even know the Lord as their Savior."

I thought it was interesting that he could GUARANTEE people's children would not turn out right unless they stayed at FBC, and he could GUARANTEE someone's grandchildren would not be saved unless they were at FBC.

And of course, he made these statements in his typical threatening and condescending tone.

This goes along with the "fear" theory that has been put forth by some on this thread. The indoctrination runs deep, and is multi-generational. We are the only ones who have the truth. Our standards preserve our holiness. The gospel is ours and ours alone. If you leave this place, you will be lost as will your family forever.

 

[prophet]

They are still trying to use fear. Pastor Wilkerson is away, speaking at a conference in California and visiting the mission team in Thailand. February has been decreed the month of the family, so in pastor's absence, men have been asked to speak who have raised great families.

All well and good, we heard from Bob Hooker for the Sunday morning service and then Pete Cowling for the Sunday evening services.

They were each pretty much as would be expected. Eddie Lapina always gives his own wrap-up after a guest speaker is finished. In his Sunday night wrap-up after Dr. Cowling, he said (as nearly as I can remember to word it exactly):

"Some of you have really been thrown by the events of the past year at this church. In my counseling I notice those that have been thrown the most are the young married couples. You've never had to go through anything like this before, you've never had anything bad happen. Now it has and you are shaken. I talked to a young couple just last week who decided they were going off to a non-denominational church. You know, no rules and no standards. It might seem like an easier way. But, I GUARANTEE, if you do that your children will be affected and your grandchildren will not even know the Lord as their Savior."

I thought it was interesting that he could GUARANTEE people's children would not turn out right unless they stayed at FBC, and he could GUARANTEE someone's grandchildren would not be saved unless they were at FBC.

And of course, he made these statements in his typical threatening and condescending tone.

This goes along with the "fear" you mention, BC. The indoctrination runs deep, and is multi-generational. We are the only ones who have the truth. Our standards preserve our holiness. The gospel is ours and ours alone. If you leave this place, you will be lost as will your family forever.

But, he knows someone who left once, and it happened to them.


Anishinaabe

 

[Still There]

When Pastor Wilkerson first came on, he made the comment he was a home pastor, but it looks like he's going to be another traveling pastor who's not going to be in the pulpit much anymore and going to get some flunkies to preach behind the pulpit.  Tired of Ray Young talking about his hero father, and all the rest of them that I've heard over the last several years.  We chose Pastor Wilkerson to pastor, not to float from mission field to mission field.  This is so discouraging to hear!  BTW, who took Darryl Moore's place?  I do not even know. 

 

[16KJV11]

The response I am getting is - fear.  Fear of losing wealth (as if HAC payed anything more than minimum wage).  Fear of losing position (and the subsequent power and prestige).  Fear of losing praise of men (friends, authority figure, etc).

What about the Fear of the Lord?

Why were so many so willing to turn a blind eye?  Is this the same phenomenon we see in public, when abuse or crime is happening in public and so few are willing to step in?

Again, maybe the lower rank employees didn't really know what was going on.  But what about those that did - and stayed?  Isn't this the proverbial "selling out?"

I don't know if you implied this or not, but one thing must be added:
Fear of losing a church family.
When your out, your out.
Now, I know what our pastor in California advocated, and I detest this b/c it is wrong:
"If someone leaves the church, you're not to have any contact or fellowship with ex church members."
I don't teach that b/c it is flat wrong and un-Christian.
There is Scriptural mandate not to fellowship with tale-bearers, gossips and critics.
But it's not up to the pastor or anyone else in the church to say who you talk to or not.

But aside from this, when you separate from a church, there is a real sense of dislocation.
Even if everyone in that church treats the ex-church member like gold, there is still a sense of loss and dislocation.
To lose that is difficult, especially if you have a lot of your life invested in the church.
Life long friendships laboring together in the ministry seems for naught.
Weekly and daily fellowship is fractured.
The feeling that you would let your fellow brethren down.
If you have a family, that doubly compounds the complexity of the issue.
Now your wife and children have to leave friends and service in which they have invested their lives.
To the casual church attender, this all means nothing, but to dedicated Christians, it's a reality that stares them in the face and it's hard to just throw it all to the wind.
A church truly is a living organism and to amputate yourself from it sometimes seems unthinkable.
I am in that situation now.
For as many reasons as I can think of to leave my current church, I can think of almost as many reasons to stay.
I've given my sweat, my tears, my life to this place for 8 years now.
I love the people, we're actually friends, we're learning to be patient with each other, some of the people actually look up to me as their pastor.
Yet, I think it's time to leave and have good reasons to go.
But it's not that easy, is it?

 

[Norefund]

Thank you for this post. It is a thoughtful reminder of the range of anxiety one feels when pondering leaving a church.

The response I am getting is - fear.  Fear of losing wealth (as if HAC payed anything more than minimum wage).  Fear of losing position (and the subsequent power and prestige).  Fear of losing praise of men (friends, authority figure, etc).

What about the Fear of the Lord?

Why were so many so willing to turn a blind eye?  Is this the same phenomenon we see in public, when abuse or crime is happening in public and so few are willing to step in?

Again, maybe the lower rank employees didn't really know what was going on.  But what about those that did - and stayed?  Isn't this the proverbial "selling out?"

I don't know if you implied this or not, but one thing must be added:
Fear of losing a church family.
When your out, your out.
Now, I know what our pastor in California advocated, and I detest this b/c it is wrong:
"If someone leaves the church, you're not to have any contact or fellowship with ex church members."
I don't teach that b/c it is flat wrong and un-Christian.
There is Scriptural mandate not to fellowship with tale-bearers, gossips and critics.
But it's not up to the pastor or anyone else in the church to say who you talk to or not.

But aside from this, when you separate from a church, there is a real sense of dislocation.
Even if everyone in that church treats the ex-church member like gold, there is still a sense of loss and dislocation.
To lose that is difficult, especially if you have a lot of your life invested in the church.
Life long friendships laboring together in the ministry seems for naught.
Weekly and daily fellowship is fractured.
The feeling that you would let your fellow brethren down.
If you have a family, that doubly compounds the complexity of the issue.
Now your wife and children have to leave friends and service in which they have invested their lives.
To the casual church attender, this all means nothing, but to dedicated Christians, it's a reality that stares them in the face and it's hard to just throw it all to the wind.
A church truly is a living organism and to amputate yourself from it sometimes seems unthinkable.
I am in that situation now.
For as many reasons as I can think of to leave my current church, I can think of almost as many reasons to stay.
I've given my sweat, my tears, my life to this place for 8 years now.
I love the people, we're actually friends, we're learning to be patient with each other, some of the people actually look up to me as their pastor.
Yet, I think it's time to leave and have good reasons to go.
But it's not that easy, is it?

 

[16KJV11]

When Pastor Wilkerson first came on, he made the comment he was a home pastor, but it looks like he's going to be another traveling pastor who's not going to be in the pulpit much anymore and going to get some flunkies to preach behind the pulpit.  Tired of Ray Young talking about his hero father, and all the rest of them that I've heard over the last several years.  We chose Pastor Wilkerson to pastor, not to float from mission field to mission field.  This is so discouraging to hear!  BTW, who took Darryl Moore's place?  I do not even know.

Is he going on mission trips or preaching within the U.S?
I can imagine that he is very concerned about Hyles Anderson College and would be trying to bolster its image and keep it alive by encouraging pastors to send their kids.
The best way to do that is through preaching in churches all over the country.
I can understand his logic if this is the case but unfortunately, this decision comes at a price.
I don't think Bro. Wilkerson wants to be known as the pastor who allowed HAC to close under his watch.

 

[Bruh]

The response I am getting is - fear.  Fear of losing wealth (as if HAC payed anything more than minimum wage).  Fear of losing position (and the subsequent power and prestige).  Fear of losing praise of men (friends, authority figure, etc).

What about the Fear of the Lord?

Why were so many so willing to turn a blind eye?  Is this the same phenomenon we see in public, when abuse or crime is happening in public and so few are willing to step in?

Again, maybe the lower rank employees didn't really know what was going on.  But what about those that did - and stayed?  Isn't this the proverbial "selling out?"

I don't know if you implied this or not, but one thing must be added:
Fear of losing a church family.
When your out, your out.
Now, I know what our pastor in California advocated, and I detest this b/c it is wrong:
"If someone leaves the church, you're not to have any contact or fellowship with ex church members."
I don't teach that b/c it is flat wrong and un-Christian.
There is Scriptural mandate not to fellowship with tale-bearers, gossips and critics.
But it's not up to the pastor or anyone else in the church to say who you talk to or not.

But aside from this, when you separate from a church, there is a real sense of dislocation.
Even if everyone in that church treats the ex-church member like gold, there is still a sense of loss and dislocation.
To lose that is difficult, especially if you have a lot of your life invested in the church.
Life long friendships laboring together in the ministry seems for naught.
Weekly and daily fellowship is fractured.
The feeling that you would let your fellow brethren down.
If you have a family, that doubly compounds the complexity of the issue.
Now your wife and children have to leave friends and service in which they have invested their lives.
To the casual church attender, this all means nothing, but to dedicated Christians, it's a reality that stares them in the face and it's hard to just throw it all to the wind.
A church truly is a living organism and to amputate yourself from it sometimes seems unthinkable.
I am in that situation now.
For as many reasons as I can think of to leave my current church, I can think of almost as many reasons to stay.
I've given my sweat, my tears, my life to this place for 8 years now.
I love the people, we're actually friends, we're learning to be patient with each other, some of the people actually look up to me as their pastor.
Yet, I think it's time to leave and have good reasons to go.
But it's not that easy, is it?

What are some of the reasons?

 

[BALAAM]

Remember, the fear of the Lord was directly tied to the fear of God's man - who seemingly was the conduit by which God meted out instruction, privilege, praise, and condemnation. Independent thought was not exactly encouraged. Also, don't forget how powerful the message was. We were saving America. If there were a few little niggling troublesome indiscretions, they were meaningless in the overwhelming battle against Satan, Communism, Liberalism, and any other number of incursions against Christianity, Truth, Justice and the American way. How dare anyone rebel against the King during this mighty struggle!

Yes, people sold out.  Wendell and Marlene Evans may be the  biggest example of sell outs, in my opinion. I mean, really, who uses the knowledge of statutory rape of their daughter by the youth pastor and son of the pastor to barter their way to greater power and privilege?

Corruption bred corruption. It probably always has and probably always will.

The response I am getting is - fear.  Fear of losing wealth (as if HAC payed anything more than minimum wage).  Fear of losing position (and the subsequent power and prestige).  Fear of losing praise of men (friends, authority figure, etc).

What about the Fear of the Lord?

Why were so many so willing to turn a blind eye?  Is this the same phenomenon we see in public, when abuse or crime is happening in public and so few are willing to step in?

Again, maybe the lower rank employees didn't really know what was going on.  But what about those that did - and stayed?  Isn't this the proverbial "selling out?"

I hate to say it but I have felt in the last ten years that one of the biggest disappointments to me is Dr. Evans. It took me that long to run across people who were here and knew what happened with dh and their daughter. Oh well, he has a nice pension and a title. May not have had that if he had done what he always told us, "Do right until the stars fall."

For a pastoral theology major, Mrs. Evans classes were an absolute joke and I never did understand how she could get away with coming to class late, not coming if she didn't want to, or making the class into a party where she was the star of the party. And this is when her cancer was in remission and she wasn't sick all the time.

 

[BALAAM]

They are still trying to use fear. Pastor Wilkerson is away, speaking at a conference in California and visiting the mission team in Thailand. February has been decreed the month of the family, so in pastor's absence, men have been asked to speak who have successfully raised great families. (Successful meaning - their children all serve the Lord full-time and draw their paychecks from a church.)

All well and good, we heard from Bob Hooker for the Sunday morning service and then Pete Cowling for the Sunday evening services.

They were each pretty much as would be expected. Eddie Lapina always gives his own wrap-up after a guest speaker is finished. In his Sunday night wrap-up after Dr. Cowling, he said (as nearly as I can remember to word it exactly):

"Some of you have really been thrown by the events of the past year at this church. In my counseling I notice those that have been thrown the most are the young married couples. You've never had to go through anything like this before, you've never had anything bad happen. Now it has and you are shaken. I talked to a young couple just last week who decided they were going off to a non-denominational church. You know, no rules and no standards. It might seem like an easier way. But, I GUARANTEE, if you do that your children will be affected and your grandchildren will not even know the Lord as their Savior."

I thought it was interesting that he could GUARANTEE people's children would not turn out right unless they stayed at FBC, and he could GUARANTEE someone's grandchildren would not be saved unless they were at FBC.

And of course, he made these statements in his typical threatening and condescending tone.

This goes along with the "fear" theory that has been put forth by some on this thread. The indoctrination runs deep, and is multi-generational. We are the only ones who have the truth. Our standards preserve our holiness. The gospel is ours and ours alone. If you leave this place, you will be lost as will your family forever.

Eddie is a stuffed shirt. There has been a young couple from fbch who grew up there and the father is a deacon, who have been attending where I do. I wonder.........
How does Mr. Ed know that all non-denominational churches have no rules and no standards? How does Mr. Ed know that none of them preach the gospel? Like so many other things they preach and teach; It just isn't true.