Is the doctrine of the Eternal Security of the believer different from the phrase, "Once saved, always saved"?
Explain.
Explain.
Once Saved, Always Saved?
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1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1 Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
I no longer like to use the expression “once saved, always saved” because too many times I have heard it used to justify living a life of immoral behavior with the assurance that because that person made a profession of faith when they were a child it doesn’t matter how they lived. The Jack Hyles crowd emphasizes that turning from sin has nothing to do with one’s salvation even though James makes it very clear that some people believe just like the demons. The kind of faith that produces no results in a changed life is dead.
I mentioned this in another thread. Before I retired in 2019 I had worked with a man everybody called Worm for many years. He was known as a vile individual who couldn’t put together a sentence without using profanity. He would go to the lunch room and talk about his sexual fantasies and other exploits. One time he was bragging about how he got kicked out of a bar because he got drunk and stripped down naked. Everything about him broadcast reprobate. I was talking with him personally one time and he told me that he was a Christian and that he was saved and going to heaven when he died because he “believed in Jesus.” I told him that just because he claimed to believe in Jesus didn’t mean that he was saved.
Not long before I retired, Worm came to work and started going around to different work stations in the warehouse telling everybody that he got saved. He came to me personally and told me that he went to a Church of God revival meeting that his aunt invited him to and that’s when he met the Lord. The several months I worked with him up to the time I retired, Worm was such a completely different man that no one would have ever believed it possible. I know of other people similar to Worm that experienced the new birth with just as amazing stories.
I believe “perseverance of the saints” is a much better way to describe the assurance one has that have truly been born again. Pastors and other Christian leaders who try to give people a false assurance of salvation because of an empty profession will one day answer to the Lord for the damage to souls they have propagated.
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Excellent answer. Fantastic video. Something some preachers who are very close to me would benefit from hearing.
But let me throw a wrench into the machine and quote Galatians 5:2-4... Take notice: I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I testify to every man who gets himself circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Emphasis, mine.
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Galations 5:2-5 is similar to what the writer of Hebrews says.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.
Throughout the Book of Hebrews, Paul is showing the Hebrews (Jews) that there is a better covenant (Heb 8:10), and only one sacrifice for sins and those who reject that one sacrifice and go back to Judaism are not saved (Heb 10: 11-14).
In Hebrews 10:39 the writer says, "But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." The Hebrews who did not go back to Judaism.
We're they ever saved?
BTW... you are hitting very close to the sermon that prompted this thread.
BTW... you are hitting very close to the sermon that prompted this thread.
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John MacArthur has some good commentary on this.
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, enlightened (same word as “illuminated” in 10:31). Understanding the gospel is not equivalent to regeneration (10:26). 1 John 1:9 is clear that enlightening is not the equivalent of salvation. Cf. Heb 10:29. tasted the heavenly gift. Tasting in the figurative sense refers to consciously experiencing something, either momentarily or continually. Christ tasted death (Heb 2:9), which was obviously momentarily. Many Jews, during the Lord's earthly ministry, experienced the blessings from heaven he brought – in healings and deliverance from demons, as well as eating the food he created miraculously (John 6). That doesn't mean they were saved.
Shared in the Holy Spirit (ESV). While partaking is used in relation to believers as in 3:1; 3:14; and 12:8, the context must be the final determining factor. The context of Heb 6:4-6 seems to preclude a reference to true believers, although all the things mentioned in verse 5 could also be applied to true believers also. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Like Simon Magus (Acts 8:9-24). these Hebrews had not yet been regenerated in spite of all they had heard and seen (cf. Matt 13:3-9; John 6:60-66). They were repeating the sins of those who died in the wilderness after seeing the miracles performed through Moses and Aaron and hearing the voice of God at Sinai. Fallen away. This is equivalent to apostasy in Heb 3:12. Those who sinned against Christ in such a way had no hope of restoration or forgiveness (cf. 10:26-27; 12:25). With full revelation they rejected the truth concluding the opposite truth about Christ. Those who want to make this verse mean that believers can lose salvation will have to admit that it would then also be impossible to get it back again.
Heb 6:9 Beloved...better things. This a change of audience and a change from a message of warning to a message of encouragement. Things that accompany salvation. The works that verify their salvation (v. 10; cf. Eph 2:10; James 2:18, 26). though we speak in this way (ESV). Though it had been necessary to speak about judgment in the preceding verses, the writer assures the “beloved,” those who are believers, that he is confident in their salvation.
Heb 6:9 Beloved...better things. This a change of audience and a change from a message of warning to a message of encouragement. Things that accompany salvation. The works that verify their salvation (v. 10; cf. Eph 2:10; James 2:18, 26). though we speak in this way (ESV). Though it had been necessary to speak about judgment in the preceding verses, the writer assures the “beloved,” those who are believers, that he is confident in their salvation.
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I don't know where you're going with this (you mentioned a sermon), but "eternal security" at least has implied something or someone (God, obviously) has guaranteed the outcome of your salvation. It's an obvious implication of the doctrine of perseverance of the saints: since God has done the work to save you, you may be secure in knowing he will carry it through.
"Once saved, always saved" is basically synonymous, but it seems to me to be too glib, as though there's no agent working to make that true.
Both of them, though, are evangelical Arminian catchphrases. I don't think I've met anyone who uses them who can also articulate the theological foundation that guarantees salvation's success.
This is the sermon that prompted this thread.
I get what he's saying about "once saved always saved"; as I began to understand the scriptures better, I too lost my taste for the phrase because it is a little too glib.
I kinda wish Pastor Paul would have unpacked the difference between the two concepts a little more but then that wasn't the crux of the sermon.
I get what he's saying about "once saved always saved"; as I began to understand the scriptures better, I too lost my taste for the phrase because it is a little too glib.
I kinda wish Pastor Paul would have unpacked the difference between the two concepts a little more but then that wasn't the crux of the sermon.
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I listened to the entire sermon and thought it was excellent! I would encourage everyone to listen to it. I see what you were asking about as to whether the people Paul was talking about in Galations 5 were ever saved. In Acts 16:1-3 Paul had Timothy circumcised so as not to hinder his ministry to the Jews, not to obtain favor with God. He wasn’t contradicting the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. Paul’s motive was love in trying to reach unsaved Jews. Those Paul were referring to in Galations 5:2-5 were Judaizers who were false brethren mixing the law of Moses with the gospel.
There is a lot of confusion in the Book of Acts because it is a transitional book which phases out the old economy and phases in the new. The law of commandments contained in ordinances (Eph 2:15-16) was permitted for awhile alongside the preaching of the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29); however, it was abolished at the cross as far as God was concerned.
In Acts 22:16 baptism may symbolize the washing away of one’s sins, just as it symbolizes death to the old life and rising to the new life (Rom 6:4-5). But just as one does not really die while in the water, neither can physical water wash away sin. Ananias was a devout Jew (v. 12) who had to be ceremonially clean to approach God in worship and maintain fellowship with other Israelites so the Jewish washings may explain part of what Ananias told Paul. In Acts 21:20-21 some Jewish believers continued to observe the ceremonial aspects of the Mosaic Law, but unlike the Judaizers (Acts 15:1), they did not view the law as a means of salvation. The Judaizers were spreading false reports that Paul was teaching Jewish believers to forsake their heritage. In Acts 21:24 Paul had just returned from an extended stay in Gentile lands and was considered ceremonially unclean so Paul was proving that he had not forsaken his Jewish heritage.
Interesting... I was pondering a similar line of thought yesterday.
Pastor Paul continues to light it up in part two of chapter 5:
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Once again he hits the nail on the head. He makes it very clear that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. He also has very good comments on preachers who are always preaching “topically” instead of going through the different books of the Bible verse by verse. His statements on King James Onlyism are self-evident. You can sit down with the KJV and other translations and realize that there is a wonderful agreement and someone who believes the KJV is the only pure translation has been taught that by some man, not something one would come up with on his own.
Lastly his teaching on hope as being something future is something I believe goes over a lot of peoples’ heads. There is a difference between owning something and actually possessing something. In Joshua 1:4-6 there is a reaffirmation of the land-grant promise to Israel that was only partially fulfilled in that day. Israel (not the Church) owns all the land God promised Abraham and his physical descendants. However, it will not be possessed by Israel until the Millennial Kingdom is set up by the Lord Jesus Christ himself. The New Testament Church could not be the fulfillment of the unconditional promises to Abraham’s descendants because Paul not only spoke of the nation of Israel being cut off, but of their being “grafted in again” and being “saved” (Rom 11:23, 26) which is yet future. In Joshua 1:11 although Israel actually owned the land promised them they had to take possession of it through the many battles led by Joshua. All things are stored up for us in Christ (Eph 1:3), but it is only as they are accepted by faith that we can be said to have them as our own. Most of us “own” far more than we actually “possess.”
Baptism replaces circumcision as the initiatory rite into the Covenant. No, the act is not what saves, but we cannot consider one a Christian who will not submit to it, even where the church is suffering persecution.
Baptism identifies us with Christ's death, that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; ) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: - Ephesians 2:5-6
This is the First Resurrection spoken of in Revelation.Except that Paul said otherwise.
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Uh, what about Joshua 21:43-45?
"And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it; and dwelt therein. . . . There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass."
Also Nehemiah 9:24-25, "So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduest before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites . . . And they took strong cities, and a fat land, and possessed houses full of all goods. . . . "
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You have to realize that we need to read the Scriptures literally, without spiritualizing.
So when, for example, Josh 21:43 says God gave Israel all the land he had sworn to their forefathers, obviously it means he has yet to give the land to them and will do so sometime in the indefinite future.
So when, for example, Josh 21:43 says God gave Israel all the land he had sworn to their forefathers, obviously it means he has yet to give the land to them and will do so sometime in the indefinite future.
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Joshua 21:43-45 is not the specific territory God promised “from the river of Egypt (Nile) to the Euphrates” (Gen 15:18) which is about 300,000 sq. miles. The nation under Joshua never occupied this complete territory and current Israel is only 8,630 sq. miles. The land promised to the “fathers” alludes to the promise to Moses (Deut 11:24) and referred to the land taken by conquest (Josh 1:3). God gave the land to Israel in promise but it only became theirs in reality when they took possession of it (Josh 1:11).
Josua 23:13-14 “Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.”
God was faithful to Israel, giving them all the land they had taken possession of and victory over all the enemies they fought, but they did not claim the lands to the river Euphrates. Instead, they allowed the idolatrous nations to coexist with them, contrary to the will of God, and eventually intermarried with the people of these nations and worshiped their idols – ending in Israel’s total captivity and dispersion – just as God predicted.
Amos 9:14-15 makes it very clear that the last time God regathers the Jewish people to their land “they will no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God.”
As I mentioned, the New Testament Church could not be the fulfillment of the unconditional promises to Abraham’s descendants because Paul not only spoke of the nation of Israel being cut off, but their being “grafted in again” and being “saved” (Rom 11:23, 26) which is yet future. We see the signs of the entire world turning against the little nation of Israel as prophesied in scripture. Currently, Israel is outnumbered 100 to 1 by hostile neighbors but God’s divine protection is upon them and woe to President Biden or any other world leaders who may wish Israel’s destruction. It will culminate at the Battle of Armageddon.
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The "all" in "All the land he swore to give to their fathers" means "all," or so I've been told.
You need to read that again. Paul said the opposite. The unbelieving branches have been cut off, not the nation. The believing branches were never cut off, and realize the promises through Christ, as do the believing gentiles which were grafted in.
And there is no promise to re-engraft the branches that were cut off. There is merely the acknowledgement of God's power to re-engraft them to check the boasting of the wild branches against the natural ones that were cut off.
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I humbly disagree. Your view says that God didn't mean what he said. When scripture "seems" to contradict itself we must attempt to reconcile that contradiction by comparing scripture with scripture. God gave Joshua all the land they conquered which wasn't all the land in the Abrahamic Covenant; they are still awaiting the time all the land promised Abraham will be in their possession. Prophecy also demands that Israel be regathered never to be driven out again. Right now the storm clouds of Armageddon are on the horizon as the world turns against the tiny nation of Israel.
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Again with the rewriting of the Scriptures. "And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers;"
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And again without rewriting the Scriptures. Abraham and his descendants were promised the land "from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates" (Gen 15:18). Also again, without rewriting the Scriptures. God promised to regather the Jews to their land to never be driven out again (Amos 9:14-15).
Romans 11:1-3 "I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Know ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets..." Paul goes on to explain in Romans chapter 11 that Israel was temporarily blinded and broken off by God to bring in the Gentiles to provoke them to jealousy. But they will be grafted in once again and "Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Rom 11:26). Today less than 2% of the people in Israel are Christians but that will change during the Battle of Armageddon when their Messiah will deliver them from annihilation by the Gentile powers. Then "the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall look on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn (Zech 12:10).
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