On Jason Collins' "heroism" for coming out of the closet.

[ALAYMAN]

You see...

...some of us think it was just as terrible for there to be a society where one's worth was evaluated by the color of one's skin as it is where sexual perversion is celebrated.

I see an increasing pluralistic society that is attacked with secularism at warp-speed, and you see Jim Wallis bumper stickers.  I get that.  You don't.

 

[rsc2a]

You see...

...some of us think it was just as terrible for there to be a society where one's worth was evaluated by the color of one's skin as it is where sexual perversion is celebrated.

I see an increasing pluralistic society that is attacked with secularism at warp-speed, and you see Jim Wallis bumper stickers.  I get that.  You don't.

Funny...if you read stuff from the 1920s, they said the same thing. If you read stuff from the 1820s, they said the same thing. If you read stuff from the 220s, they said the same thing.

Notice a pattern?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Funny...if you read stuff from the 1920s, they said the same thing. If you read stuff from the 1820s, they said the same thing. If you read stuff from the 220s, they said the same thing.

Notice a pattern?

And God destroyed the world at one time with a flood, well, just because He wanted to, and everything has always been equally morally bland, or not.

 

[rsc2a]

Funny...if you read stuff from the 1920s, they said the same thing. If you read stuff from the 1820s, they said the same thing. If you read stuff from the 220s, they said the same thing.

Notice a pattern?

And God destroyed the world at one time with a flood, well, just because He wanted to, and everything has always been equally morally bland, or not.

Pretty much...

...or is a world where Christian women are bound and then raped by bulls to the amusement of the emperor somehow not as bad as some guy coming out? Or Christians being tied to stakes and used as torches to lit the emperor's gardens?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Are some things worse today? Absolutely! Are something things better? Absolutely! But, all and all, things are just different, not better, not worse.

This is the type of stuff you should keep spouting, so that more people on the FFF will see how absolutely insane you can be at times.

You see...

...some of us think it was just as terrible for there to be a society where one's worth was evaluated by the color of one's skin as it is where sexual perversion is celebrated.

And I agree with that..but there is much more to the cultural decline than the celebration of sodomy.
One of the foundational problems is the breakdown and decline of the family structure...resulting in the rise of illegitimate birthrate, which exasperates the decline in the family.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

[quote author=brianb]We need to pray much more for our society. People are deceived more than ever because of relativism. Fifty years ago most people thought everything that God called sin was sin but now most people think the opposite. They think of God as tolerant which taken to its logical conclusion means any one can do anything - even murder - and God will just ignore it.  They call themselves Christians because somehow it's better than calling themselves humanists which is what they are essentially.

Fifty years ago, people thought it was okay to make people who looked a little different sit at the back of the bus and use separate water fountains. Fifty years ago, people thought beating a child into submission was acceptable parenting. Fifty years ago, people believed marital rape was an logical impossibility.

Are some things worse today? Absolutely! Are something things better? Absolutely! But, all and all, things are just different, not better, not worse.

Really?  I guess one of two things is true then either your head is in the clouds or in the sand. Either way your just wrong on this one as reality does not support your statement.
[/quote]

You left out one place.....

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And I agree with that..but there is much more to the cultural decline than the celebration of sodomy. One of the foundational problems is the breakdown and decline of the family structure...resulting in the rise of illegitimate birthrate, which exasperates the decline in the family.
[/quote]

I would agree. But for every breakdown, you can point to something that has gotten better. It's not that things are better, just that some things are better. It's not that things are worse, just that some things are worse.

We could play tennis all day long giving examples of each, but it would be fruitless, so I'm not going to try.

 

[T-Bone]

[quote author=brianb]We need to pray much more for our society. People are deceived more than ever because of relativism. Fifty years ago most people thought everything that God called sin was sin but now most people think the opposite. They think of God as tolerant which taken to its logical conclusion means any one can do anything - even murder - and God will just ignore it.  They call themselves Christians because somehow it's better than calling themselves humanists which is what they are essentially.

Fifty years ago, people thought it was okay to make people who looked a little different sit at the back of the bus and use separate water fountains. Fifty years ago, people thought beating a child into submission was acceptable parenting. Fifty years ago, people believed marital rape was an logical impossibility.

Are some things worse today? Absolutely! Are something things better? Absolutely! But, all and all, things are just different, not better, not worse.

Really?  I guess one of two things is true then either your head is in the clouds or in the sand. Either way your just wrong on this one as reality does not support your statement.

You left out one place.....
[/quote]

 

[ALAYMAN]

Pretty much...

...or is a world where Christian women are bound and then raped by bulls to the amusement of the emperor somehow not as bad as some guy coming out? Or Christians being tied to stakes and used as torches to lit the emperor's gardens?

Pretty much, not.  There have been moral declines in history that have been more and less severe.  To deny such is absolute ignorance.  Your moral philosophy also guts the import of of the moral digression of people depicted in Romans 1, as well as verses such as...


Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD;

 

[rsc2a]

Pretty much...

...or is a world where Christian women are bound and then raped by bulls to the amusement of the emperor somehow not as bad as some guy coming out? Or Christians being tied to stakes and used as torches to lit the emperor's gardens?

Pretty much, not.  There have been moral declines in history that have been more and less severe.  To deny such is absolute ignorance.  Your moral philosophy also guts the import of of the moral digression of people depicted in Romans 1, as well as verses such as...


Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD;

Didn't you quote a verse in someone's karma description that said things were basically the same then as now?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Didn't you quote a verse in someone's karma description that said things were basically the same then as now?

No

 

[rsc2a]

Didn't you quote a verse in someone's karma description that said things were basically the same then as now?

No

I'll remind you:

In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

 

[brianb]

[quote author=brianb]We need to pray much more for our society. People are deceived more than ever because of relativism. Fifty years ago most people thought everything that God called sin was sin but now most people think the opposite. They think of God as tolerant which taken to its logical conclusion means any one can do anything - even murder - and God will just ignore it.  They call themselves Christians because somehow it's better than calling themselves humanists which is what they are essentially.

Fifty years ago, people thought it was okay to make people who looked a little different sit at the back of the bus and use separate water fountains. Fifty years ago, people thought beating a child into submission was acceptable parenting. Fifty years ago, people believed marital rape was an logical impossibility.

Are some things worse today? Absolutely! Are something things better? Absolutely! But, all and all, things are just different, not better, not worse.
[/quote]

As far as my reading of history goes that was just in the American south. Much of that was the fault of those who professed Christianity - no connection to relativism which is far more dangerous. The difference today is most if not all of America is pretty much dominated by secularism and humanism but with a relativistic Christian face. Even in many churches there is very little talk about moral issues - it's mostly self-help and positive messages rather than repentance and negative messages.  They are giving people what they want rather than what they need and what God wants for them.

 

[ALAYMAN]

In those days there was no king in Israel. Everyone did what was right in his own eyes.

lol, as usual, the only point you have is the top of your head.

I've never said, implied, or inferred that there weren't times in human history that weren't bad.  In fact, I've already made the point that there was a time so bad that God destroyed every human being except a small extended family.  But we're not talking about the entirety of human existence in the context of this conversation.  That was you, in typical fashion, chasing rabbits and pulling things out of, well, thin air.  If you think that America, morally speaking, particularly from a Judeo-Christian framework, is no better or worse than at any time in history, well, that sir, makes you a dolt.

And of course you never addressed the point of my last post which clearly speaks about the fact that there are warnings to nations about avoiding ungodly behavior, which clearly says that at some times more than others nations act more or less morally.  For crying out loud, look at the story of the OT people of Israel specifically under the reign of kings and you see an ebb and flow of morality in a nation, largely based on leadership.  It's conversations with you like these that make people have that flat spot on their forehead.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Right on call, as Brianb pointed out regarding the cultural relativity of the day, we are served by <ahem> Revernend Emily Heath of the United Church of Christ with this lovely little piece of garbage about Tim Tebow and hypocritical judgmental Christians...

And here's what struck me about what Broussard said. It wasn't the "homosexuality is a sin" stuff, because we hear that all the time. Of course there are plenty of Christians who wouldn't agree with Broussard's assertion that homosexuality is sinful, but for the sake of argument, let's not focus on that. Instead I'm interested in the part where Broussard tells Collins that because he is gay, he is not a Christian.

I'm not sure exactly how Jason Collins defines his faith other than saying, "I take the teachings of Jesus seriously..." But what I am sure of is that Jason Collins should be the one defining his own faith, and not Chris Broussard.

For most of us who are gay and Christian, we understand that some Christians believe we are "living in sin." We also understand that our faith does not hinge on their acceptance. While people like Broussard believe we are "walking in open rebellion to God and Jesus Christ," we are pretty sure that we are actually living as the people God created us to be. And so, really, it doesn't matter much whether or not Chris Broussard has seen fit to "characterize" us as Christian. That's not his call.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-emily-c-heath/

Translation: "who are you to define what a Christian is?.....I'll make up my own definition that suits me and whatever lifestyle I want, thankyaverymuch".

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=brianb]As far as my reading of history goes that was just in the American south.[/quote]

It wasn't just a southern thing...

[quote author=brianb]Much of that was the fault of those who professed Christianity - no connection to relativism which is far more dangerous.[/quote]

I think MLK, Andrew Goodman and a host of others would disagree with you...

[quote author=brianb]The difference today is most if not all of America is pretty much dominated by secularism and humanism but with a relativistic Christian face.[/quote]

Any other -isms you want to throw in there? I'm curious...do you know what percentage of the population regularly attended church in the 1790s?

[quote author=brianb]Even in many churches there is very little talk about moral issues - it's mostly self-help and positive messages rather than repentance and negative messages. They are giving people what they want rather than what they need and what God wants for them.[/quote]

It is the fear of hell that leads to repentance? My Bible reads a bit differently.

(I would add that if you're preaching negative messages, you're doing it wrong.)