Obama administration becoming more radical?

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Izdaari said:
kiwimac said:
Obama is not a Marxist. He is a centre-right politician. Now I live in a country that is far more socialist than the US has EVER been.Your insistence that he is a Marxist looks both laughingly funny and very like some kind of insanity from here.

Well, yes, in New Zealand he would be center-right. But in the country he's president of, he's in the left wing of our more leftward party. Frame of reference matters.

Frame of reference *does* matter.  That's why the terms "Marxist" are so laughable, in the American frame of reference.  The two major political parties are so far removed from Marxism that they have nothing in common with it.
 
[quote author=truthdetector]
You'll find that demands carry little weight with me.  Let's just say that I probably read more news sources by 10am than most people read all week.  When we actually have something to discuss, then you'll see my sources.  Unlike some people around here - for example, christundivided - I actually provide links and citations to whatever I'm saying.


Nice dodge.[/quote]

It is not a dodge; you simply aren't used to having people reject your demands, apparently.  Spoiled as a kid or just a lack of self-control, I guess.  Typical of FOX news aficionados; the least informed people in America.  ::)

Tomorrow, during all of your early morning reading, perhaps you could post a list of the distinguished news sources you consult.  Have a good day, lefty.

1. If you say something interesting, and I decide to comment on it, you'll see my sources.
2.I always have a good day.
 
kiwimac said:
I respectfully disagree. Obama is much better than ANY of the GOP contenders.

We disagree on this one. There is still Super Tuesday (hey, that's today!) to get through, but it appears the momentum is now shifting Romney's way, and that he will be the nominee. I think Romney is greatly preferable to Obama, if only because IMO Obama has been utterly incompetent at fixing our economic mess. Romney can be accused of being a flip-flopper and a RINO, but nobody thinks he's not a good manager and a good capitalist who understands the economy.

There are other GOP politicians I'd prefer over Romney, but they chose not to run. Mitch Daniels, Chris Christie, etc.

As for the others?

Santorum: I like him on economics and foreign policy, but he is such an extreme social conservative and borderline theocrat that I would have a great of difficulty holding my nose hard enough to vote for him. But I couldn't vote for Obama either, for the sake of the economy. I'd probably vote Libertarian as a safe protest vote, knowing that Obama would carry my state (WA) regardless.

Gingrich: I like him better than Obama except on temperament. He is too mercurial to be ideal as a president. But he has a lot of terrific ideas. I just don't know if he could stay focused on any of them long enough to get them implemented. If I were president, I would hire him as a domestic policy advisor.

Paul: I love him except on foreign policy. But that's a deal breaker.
 
Izdaari said:
kiwimac said:
I respectfully disagree. Obama is much better than ANY of the GOP contenders.

We disagree on this one. There is still Super Tuesday (hey, that's today!) to get through, but it appears the momentum is now shifting Romney's way, and that he will be the nominee. I think Romney is greatly preferable to Obama, if only because IMO Obama has been utterly incompetent at fixing our economic mess. Romney can be accused of being a flip-flopper and a RINO, but nobody thinks he's not a good manager and a good capitalist who understands the economy.

There are other GOP politicians I'd prefer over Romney, but they chose not to run. Mitch Daniels, Chris Christie, etc.

As for the others?

Santorum: I like him on economics and foreign policy, but he is such an extreme social conservative and borderline theocrat that I would have a great of difficulty holding my nose hard enough to vote for him. But I couldn't vote for Obama either, for the sake of the economy. I'd probably vote Libertarian as a safe protest vote, knowing that Obama would carry my state (WA) regardless.

Gingrich: I like him better than Obama except on temperament. He is too mercurial to be ideal as a president. But he has a lot of terrific ideas. I just don't know if he could stay focused on any of them long enough to get them implemented. If I were president, I would hire him as a domestic policy advisor.

Paul: I love him except on foreign policy. But that's a deal breaker.

Gary Johnson for me!
 
[quote author=Izdaari]
We disagree on this one. There is still Super Tuesday (hey, that's today!) to get through, but it appears the momentum is now shifting Romney's way, and that he will be the nominee. I think Romney is greatly preferable to Obama, if only because IMO Obama has been utterly incompetent at fixing our economic mess. Romney can be accused of being a flip-flopper and a RINO, but nobody thinks he's not a good manager and a good capitalist who understands the economy.[/quote]

Let's keep the question focused: what precisely do you think that Obama should have done to fix the economy?

I'm not asking for a full business plan; just a list of some of the things you think should have been done, but were neglected, and how doing those things would have improved our economy.

And in viewing your other posts, it seems you're one of the few people here who can converse without sarcasm and abuse, so I'm looking forward to that.
 
redgreen5 said:
Izdaari said:
kiwimac said:
Obama is not a Marxist. He is a centre-right politician. Now I live in a country that is far more socialist than the US has EVER been.Your insistence that he is a Marxist looks both laughingly funny and very like some kind of insanity from here.

Well, yes, in New Zealand he would be center-right. But in the country he's president of, he's in the left wing of our more leftward party. Frame of reference matters.

Frame of reference *does* matter.  That's why the terms "Marxist" are so laughable, in the American frame of reference.  The two major political parties are so far removed from Marxism that they have nothing in common with it.

From my libertarian (aka classical liberal) perspective, I wouldn't say quite nothing. Both parties are far more statist than I'm happy with.

But I have not called Obama a Marxist. I generally prefer to avoid over-blown rhetoric, especially when it's not accurate or helpful.
 
rsc2a said:
Izdaari said:
kiwimac said:
I respectfully disagree. Obama is much better than ANY of the GOP contenders.

We disagree on this one. There is still Super Tuesday (hey, that's today!) to get through, but it appears the momentum is now shifting Romney's way, and that he will be the nominee. I think Romney is greatly preferable to Obama, if only because IMO Obama has been utterly incompetent at fixing our economic mess. Romney can be accused of being a flip-flopper and a RINO, but nobody thinks he's not a good manager and a good capitalist who understands the economy.

There are other GOP politicians I'd prefer over Romney, but they chose not to run. Mitch Daniels, Chris Christie, etc.

As for the others?

Santorum: I like him on economics and foreign policy, but he is such an extreme social conservative and borderline theocrat that I would have a great of difficulty holding my nose hard enough to vote for him. But I couldn't vote for Obama either, for the sake of the economy. I'd probably vote Libertarian as a safe protest vote, knowing that Obama would carry my state (WA) regardless.

Gingrich: I like him better than Obama except on temperament. He is too mercurial to be ideal as a president. But he has a lot of terrific ideas. I just don't know if he could stay focused on any of them long enough to get them implemented. If I were president, I would hire him as a domestic policy advisor.

Paul: I love him except on foreign policy. But that's a deal breaker.

Gary Johnson for me!

I like Gary Johnson a lot! But I have the same problem with him on foreign policy that I do with Ron Paul: in today's dangerous world, their extreme non-interventionism just won't fly. And Johnson is now out of the GOP race, and is trying for the Libertarian Party nomination, which I expect he will win.
 
redgreen5 said:
[quote author=Izdaari]
We disagree on this one. There is still Super Tuesday (hey, that's today!) to get through, but it appears the momentum is now shifting Romney's way, and that he will be the nominee. I think Romney is greatly preferable to Obama, if only because IMO Obama has been utterly incompetent at fixing our economic mess. Romney can be accused of being a flip-flopper and a RINO, but nobody thinks he's not a good manager and a good capitalist who understands the economy.

Let's keep the question focused: what precisely do you think that Obama should have done to fix the economy?

I'm not asking for a full business plan; just a list of some of the things you think should have been done, but were neglected, and how doing those things would have improved our economy.

And in viewing your other posts, it seems you're one of the few people here who can converse without sarcasm and abuse, so I'm looking forward to that.
[/quote]

It's a fair question, but not as easy as it sounds. I'll come back to this one, after breakfast and coffee at least.
 
redgreen5 said:
Let's keep the question focused: what precisely do you think that Obama should have done to fix the economy?

I'm not asking for a full business plan; just a list of some of the things you think should have been done, but were neglected, and how doing those things would have improved our economy.

- Well, for one, the unemployment benefit extensions were beyond ridiculous and don't help the economy at all.

- I also think suspending capital gains taxes would have been very helpful in order to encourage further investment in a way that wouldn't have any impact on revenues (i.e. deficit-neutral), at least according to the studies I've read.

- A lot (not all) of the stimulus projects were not even remotely stimulus-driven and many of the projects/programs that were stimulus-driven were handled in such an inept fashion that they possibly did more harm than good. (Here's looking at you first-time home buyer credit and cash-for-clunkers.)

- Furthermore, whether you like it or not, Obamacare is a huge albatross around the neck of business and should not have been implemented during a major recession (if at all - my vote).

And that's just off the top of my head...
 
Izdaari said:
redgreen5 said:
[quote author=Izdaari]
We disagree on this one. There is still Super Tuesday (hey, that's today!) to get through, but it appears the momentum is now shifting Romney's way, and that he will be the nominee. I think Romney is greatly preferable to Obama, if only because IMO Obama has been utterly incompetent at fixing our economic mess. Romney can be accused of being a flip-flopper and a RINO, but nobody thinks he's not a good manager and a good capitalist who understands the economy.

Let's keep the question focused: what precisely do you think that Obama should have done to fix the economy?

I'm not asking for a full business plan; just a list of some of the things you think should have been done, but were neglected, and how doing those things would have improved our economy.

And in viewing your other posts, it seems you're one of the few people here who can converse without sarcasm and abuse, so I'm looking forward to that.

It's a fair question, but not as easy as it sounds. I'll come back to this one, after breakfast and coffee at least.
[/quote]

Sounds good.  I have some meetings to go to, and can't respond anyhow until later.
 
Izdaari said:
rsc2a said:
Gary Johnson for me!

I like Gary Johnson a lot! But I have the same problem with him on foreign policy that I do with Ron Paul: in today's dangerous world, their extreme non-interventionism just won't fly. And Johnson is now out of the GOP race, and is trying for the Libertarian Party nomination, which I expect he will win.

Listening to a couple of his interviews, Johnson is much less extreme than Paul in regards to foreign policy, although still extreme by GOP standards.
 
redgreen5 said:
[quote author=christundivided]

I find it funny that people quote FOX News, and then think that *other* people are drinking the Kool-aid.


Can you point out the kool-aid in the article?

Here's the reality:

FOX does two things for news:

1. they recycle content that they get from actual news services - Reuters, UPI, Agence France Presse, etc.  All news agencies do this; very few news outlets have the manpower or budget to duplicate the work of the long-established wire services I just mentioned, especially when it comes to foreign reporting.  You can spot this kind of article because FOX is required by law (as all news agencies are) to give credit to the agency they are citing.[/quote]

Liar. Find the article posted on the "wire".

2. they create their own little spin articles that have no attributions for source, and typically veer far, far off the deep end into rightwing territory. You can spot that kind of article because the byline for it reads "FoxNews.com".

Provide evidence.

It's highly unlikely that you "thought" anything at all.

I still see you're still hurting from our "altercations". Don't take it personal. I'm sure you can't help it. You'll probably need plenty of Governmental Assistance to get over it.
 
rsc2a said:
Izdaari said:
rsc2a said:
Gary Johnson for me!

I like Gary Johnson a lot! But I have the same problem with him on foreign policy that I do with Ron Paul: in today's dangerous world, their extreme non-interventionism just won't fly. And Johnson is now out of the GOP race, and is trying for the Libertarian Party nomination, which I expect he will win.

Listening to a couple of his interviews, Johnson is much less extreme than Paul in regards to foreign policy, although still extreme by GOP standards.

Poor fellow couldn't get enough republican votes to stay in the primary so he switches to the Libertarian party? Poor little fellow. I'm glad there are still one or two people around that will still vote for him. You've really got a "winner" on you hands in "Johnson".
 
christundivided said:
rsc2a said:
Izdaari said:
rsc2a said:
Gary Johnson for me!

I like Gary Johnson a lot! But I have the same problem with him on foreign policy that I do with Ron Paul: in today's dangerous world, their extreme non-interventionism just won't fly. And Johnson is now out of the GOP race, and is trying for the Libertarian Party nomination, which I expect he will win.

Listening to a couple of his interviews, Johnson is much less extreme than Paul in regards to foreign policy, although still extreme by GOP standards.

Poor fellow couldn't get enough republican votes to stay in the primary so he switches to the Libertarian party? Poor little fellow. I'm glad there are still one or two people around that will still vote for him. You've really got a "winner" on you hands in "Johnson".

He was competing on the same issues and for the same voters as Ron Paul... but Ron Paul had much more name recognition. That's pretty much the same position that Huntsman was in versus Romney. It doesn't take a political genius to see that's a very tough thing to take on.

Johnson likely will win the LP nomination, and will be one of the best LP nominees there's ever been. Of course he won't win, but he'll popularize libertarian ideas a little more. And perhaps he'll be a viable GOP candidate next time around. Ron Paul has proven that having been the LP nominee doesn't hurt a libertarian running as a Republican.
 
rsc2a said:
Izdaari said:
rsc2a said:
Gary Johnson for me!

I like Gary Johnson a lot! But I have the same problem with him on foreign policy that I do with Ron Paul: in today's dangerous world, their extreme non-interventionism just won't fly. And Johnson is now out of the GOP race, and is trying for the Libertarian Party nomination, which I expect he will win.

Listening to a couple of his interviews, Johnson is much less extreme than Paul in regards to foreign policy, although still extreme by GOP standards.

The more moderate tone Johnson takes on a lot of things as compared to Ron Paul makes him a more attractive candidate to me, and I think to general election voters as well. It would have been quite refreshing to see him as the GOP nominee. Perhaps next time.
 
[quote author=christundivided]
Here's the reality:

FOX does two things for news:

1. they recycle content that they get from actual news services - Reuters, UPI, Agence France Presse, etc.  All news agencies do this; very few news outlets have the manpower or budget to duplicate the work of the long-established wire services I just mentioned, especially when it comes to foreign reporting.  You can spot this kind of article because FOX is required by law (as all news agencies are) to give credit to the agency they are citing.


Liar. Find the article posted on the "wire". [/quote]

How does the above make me a liar?  I didn't say that the article would be found on the wire. Duh.

2. they create their own little spin articles that have no attributions for source, and typically veer far, far off the deep end into rightwing territory. You can spot that kind of article because the byline for it reads "FoxNews.com".


Provide evidence.

As soon as you provide evidence for anythign you've claimed, you'll be in a position to demand evidence from others.


It's highly unlikely that you "thought" anything at all.

I still see you're still hurting from our "altercations".

LOL the reality is that you had your butt kicked all over the forum.  Retreat into your little fantasy if you like; just don't expect others to buy into it.
 
[quote author=rsc2a]
- Well, for one, the unemployment benefit extensions were beyond ridiculous and don't help the economy at all. [/quote]

So let's take these one at a time.  I may not finish all of them in one sitting; I have some errands to do.

Here are the facts:

1. the American economy derives 70% of its growth from consumer spending - the reason this is important is because it gives guidance as to how to stimulate a sluggish economy.  In other words, a 5% improvement in the 70% growth area will result in a larger overall improvement in the economy, than a 5% growth in the 30% area will.  That's just natural; 5% of a big pie is more than 5% of a small pie.
http://useconomy.about.com/od/grossdomesticproduct/f/GDP_Components.htm

2. unemployed individuals pretty much life hand-to-mouth - people on unemployment are, by definition, making less on unemployment than they were on their jobs.  This holds true even for minimum wage jobs.  So with less money coming in, the unemployment benefits will be spent on vital essentials. This means that unemployment benefits go directly into the local economy, for things like rent, groceries, gas, clothing, etc. as opposed to being stashed in savings accounts or invested in foreign stocks and bonds;

3. money from unemployment benefits is a significant boost to local economies - whether you're talking about city, county, state, etc.  This is a phenomenon known as the multiplier effect; for every $1 injected into the local economy, what is the net result experienced across the total economy?  In other words, the amount of extra groceries that the local grocery store buys, the additional stock clerks it has to hire to handle the customers, the additional inventory ordered by the drugstore, the additional expansion in retail space rented out to make enough room for a local clothing store, etc. 

4. of all the items considered for stimulus, increased aid to the unemployed has the highest payoff - you can look on this as a kind of metric of ROI (return on investment), except in this case we're measuring the return on tax dollars invested, with the goal of stimulating the economy out of a recession. Figures from the CBO show the results ranging from a low of 0.70 per $1.00 spent, to a high of $1.90 per dollar spent.  http://www.cbo.gov/publication/41813  There is variation on the actual amount, because it depends on the geographic location, the items involved, etc.  Mark Zandi, of Moody's Economy.com, in Congressional testimony indicated that the ROI for unemployment benefits was $1.61 in return for every $1 invested. He further estimated that the only item with a higher return on investment was an expansion of food stamp programs, with an ROI of $1.73.

http://www.timesunion.com/default/article/Recovery-means-investing-not-cutting-905131.php#ixzz1O3eTLBWw
Mark Zandi, an economist at Moody's Analytics who was a principal adviser to John McCain's presidential campaign, argues that reducing spending during a deep recession is bad economics. Zandi estimates that every dollar spent on unemployment assistance generates $1.61 worth of activity, $1 on infrastructure yields $1.57, and $1 in assistance to states to prevent layoffs yields $1.41.

5. the idea that unemployment benefits discourage job-seeking in a depressed economy can be easily disproven - during the current recession, there were 15 million jobs lost.  At the peak, there were 1.5 million jobs going unfilled (i.e., want ads for positions that weren't being filled).  If we had a magic wand and could match up job hunters to these positions instantly, guess what?  We'd have zero open jobs left, but we'd still have 13.5 million people looking for work (15 million workers - 1.5 million jobs = 13.5 million workers left).  Of course it doesn't work that way.  A job opening may not be in the same location as the unemployed person to fill it; a radiation technician in Atlanta, GA can't always just pull up stakes and move to the job opening in Detroit.  This is referred to as economic friction.
 
[quote author=rsc2a]
- I also think suspending capital gains taxes would have been very helpful in order to encourage further investment in a way that wouldn't have any impact on revenues (i.e. deficit-neutral), at least according to the studies I've read. [/quote]

So let's review this one:

1.  companies have been sitting on record amounts of cash - US companies are sitting on mountains of money right now - they have more money on their hands than they've had in decades. Do you know what they're doing with it?

(1) mergers & acquisitions;
(2) stock buybacks and dividend payments;
(3) going to the credit markets and issuing corporate debt at the lowest rate in history.

But one thing they are not doing, and that is hiring.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=a6kXsL1Q5FYc

A majority of companies in the Standard & Poor
 
And actually, I think I'll stop with those two, for the moment.  I don't want to open too many cans of worms at one time, and those two should provide plenty of room for comment.
 
redgreen5 said:
5. the idea that unemployment benefits discourage job-seeking in a depressed economy can be easily disproven - during the current recession, there were 15 million jobs lost.  At the peak, there were 1.5 million jobs going unfilled (i.e., want ads for positions that weren't being filled).  If we had a magic wand and could match up job hunters to these positions instantly, guess what?  We'd have zero open jobs left, but we'd still have 13.5 million people looking for work (15 million workers - 1.5 million jobs = 13.5 million workers left).  Of course it doesn't work that way.  A job opening may not be in the same location as the unemployed person to fill it; a radiation technician in Atlanta, GA can't always just pull up stakes and move to the job opening in Detroit.  This is referred to as economic friction.

This paper provides new evidence on job search intensity of the unemployed in the U.S., modeling job search intensity as time allocated to job search activities. The main findings are: 1) the average unemployed worker in the U.S. devotes about 41 minutes to job search on weekdays, which is substantially more than his or her European counterpart; 2) workers who expect to be recalled by their previous employer search substantially less than the average unemployed worker; 3) across the 50 states and D.C., job search is inversely related to the generosity of unemployment benefits, with an elasticity between -1.6 and -2.2; 4) the predicted wage is a strong predictor of time devoted to job search, with an elasticity in excess of 2.5; 5) job search intensity for those eligible for Unemployment Insurance (UI) increases prior to benefit exhaustion; 6) time devoted to job search is fairly constant regardless of unemployment duration for those who are ineligible for UI. A nonparametric Monte Carlo technique suggests that the relationship between job search effort and the duration of unemployment for a cross-section of job seekers is only slightly biased by length-based sampling.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1261452

---

Other than that, I don't feel like getting in a drawn out conversation about it.  ;)
 
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