Johnny Mac quote on reconciliation....

[AmazedbyGrace]

Good to see you round here again.

Thank you.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I think he said the horizontal/vertical relationship is a false dichotomy.  In many (all?) respects, your horizontal relationship IS your vertical relationship.

Okay, I see that in a better light.  Yes, you can't be morally right by saying the vertical relationship may be in good standing if the horizontal is wrong (or vice versa).  You can't have one without the other.  I understood that before our conversation, but I don't think that Mac was advocating that you could have one without the other either, so I don't see how he presented a false dichotomy.

The context of the statement might bring additional clarity.
MacArthur doesn't present a false dichotomy.
And Sidlow Baxter isn't a heretic.


I can't wait for rsc2a and Castor to come out with their commentaries and other study materials.....they'll sell ones.....

 

[ALAYMAN]

...And Sidlow Baxter isn't a heretic.

I was tryin' to play nice with rc cola, but I really am mystified how what Mac said could in any way be taken as a false dichotomy.  Some things have to be done before others for stuff to work right, and Mac was affirming the word which says don't pretend to be right with God when you're not right with your brother.  Pretty simple stuff, and Mac merely confirmed that straightforward teaching.

Amazedbygrace had a legitmate quibble with the way Mac worded things, but I feel certain that if Johnny could tweak his statement a bit that he would affirm that he wasn't talking about being sinlessly perfect, but rather that "every man ought to examine himself" regularly, keeping short accounts with both God, and their brethren.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]I was tryin' to play nice with rc cola, but I really am mystified how what Mac said could in any way be taken as a false dichotomy.  Some things have to be done before others for stuff to work right, and Mac was affirming the word which says don't pretend to be right with God when you're not right with your brother.  Pretty simple stuff, and Mac merely confirmed that straightforward teaching.[/quote]

I wasn't commenting on Macarthur's quote. I was commenting on your statement. You presented the false dichotomy.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

...And Sidlow Baxter isn't a heretic.

I was tryin' to play nice with rc cola, but I really am mystified how what Mac said could in any way be taken as a false dichotomy.  Some things have to be done before others for stuff to work right, and Mac was affirming the word which says don't pretend to be right with God when you're not right with your brother.  Pretty simple stuff, and Mac merely confirmed that straightforward teaching.

Amazedbygrace had a legitmate quibble with the way Mac worded things, but I feel certain that if Johnny could tweak his statement a bit that he would affirm that he wasn't talking about being sinlessly perfect, but rather that "every man ought to examine himself" regularly, keeping short accounts with both God, and their brethren.

I agree the wording was awkward, which is why I thought the context might shine a little light on it. But, at this point, that would be moot! 

Your Mom doing well?

 

[ALAYMAN]

I wasn't commenting on Macarthur's quote. I was commenting on your statement. You presented the false dichotomy.

I did?  Gee whiz, this might just be another one of those episodes when you don't know what the Sam Hill you're talking about.

<ALAYMAN kicks himself, but goes ahead and asks anyway.....>

How did I do that?

Your Mom doing well?

So far so good.  She was out riding the mower yesterday (her favorite thing to do).

 

[rsc2a]

I wasn't commenting on Macarthur's quote. I was commenting on your statement. You presented the false dichotomy.

I did?  Gee whiz, this might just be another one of those episodes when you don't know what the Sam Hill you're talking about.

<ALAYMAN kicks himself, but goes ahead and asks anyway.....>

How did I do that?

This is simple really...not complicated at all...

Let me post the whole thing then ask some questions for the class...

[quote author=ALAYMAN]My main beef was the opening sentence, where he said that true worship is not enhanced by <better> preaching.  The word of God is a primary agent/means of our sanctification and is at the heart of evangelical Christianity from the beginning.  I think his exaggerated rhetoric was misplaced.  Yes, it is important to make sure that our horizontal relationships are in order before we approach our vertical worship, but the way he came across appeared to be presenting a false dichotomy.

I would agree (with the exception of the underlined part), but I definitely wouldn't limit it to preaching. I would include the music, prayer, and architecture as well.

The problem I have with the underlined part is that I believe this horizontal/vertical division is also a false dichotomy.[/quote]

...ok class, whose statement am I referring to, Macarthur's or Alayman's?

 

[ALAYMAN]

...ok class, whose statement am I referring to, Macarthur's or Alayman's?

Okay nimrod, where's the false dichotomy?

 

[rsc2a]

...ok class, whose statement am I referring to, Macarthur's or Alayman's?

Okay nimrod, where's the false dichotomy?

I think he said the horizontal/vertical relationship is a false dichotomy.  In many (all?) respects, your horizontal relationship IS your vertical relationship. 

I think he said the horizontal/vertical relationship is a false dichotomy.  In many (all?) respects, your horizontal relationship IS your vertical relationship.

This.

I think he said the horizontal/vertical relationship is a false dichotomy.  In many (all?) respects, your horizontal relationship IS your vertical relationship.

Okay, I see that in a better light.  Yes, you can't be morally right by saying the vertical relationship may be in good standing if the horizontal is wrong (or vice versa).  You can't have one without the other.  I understood that before our conversation, but I don't think that Mac was advocating that you could have one without the other either, so I don't see how he presented a false dichotomy.

I might be a nimrod but at least I can read.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I might be a nimrod...

yep, nothing but a nimrod to see here folks.


Confession is good for the soul and is always the first step in the journey.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I can't wait for rsc2a and Castor to come out with their commentaries and other study materials.....they'll sell ones.....

Like rsc2a said, the false dichotomy is with respect to vertical/horizontal relationships, not Mac's quote.  When Jesus says (and I paraphrase) "inasmuch as you've done this for the least of my brethren, you've done it for me", he's saying your horizontal relationship (what you did for your brethren) is equivalent to your vertical relationship (what you did for me). 

 

[ALAYMAN]

I can't wait for rsc2a and Castor to come out with their commentaries and other study materials.....they'll sell ones.....

Like rsc2a said, the false dichotomy is with respect to vertical/horizontal relationships, not Mac's quote.  When Jesus says (and I paraphrase) "inasmuch as you've done this for the least of my brethren, you've done it for me", he's saying your horizontal relationship (what you did for your brethren) is equivalent to your vertical relationship (what you did for me).

I think that there's a significant distinction that needs to be made however.  At the end of the day, we are not God, because he is wholly other.  It is acceptable to say that we can't be right with God if we are not right with our brothers, but it is not acceptable to say that our brothers are God.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I can't wait for rsc2a and Castor to come out with their commentaries and other study materials.....they'll sell ones.....

Like rsc2a said, the false dichotomy is with respect to vertical/horizontal relationships, not Mac's quote.  When Jesus says (and I paraphrase) "inasmuch as you've done this for the least of my brethren, you've done it for me", he's saying your horizontal relationship (what you did for your brethren) is equivalent to your vertical relationship (what you did for me).

I think that there's a significant distinction that needs to be made however.  At the end of the day, we are not God, because he is wholly other.  It is acceptable to say that we can't be right with God if we are not right with our brothers, but it is not acceptable to say that our brothers are God.

So who is saying our brothers are God?  I'm in awe of how you can manufacture a theological problem out of a simple scriptural point.  You have a very active imagination. 

 

[rsc2a]

I can't wait for rsc2a and Castor to come out with their commentaries and other study materials.....they'll sell ones.....

Like rsc2a said, the false dichotomy is with respect to vertical/horizontal relationships, not Mac's quote.  When Jesus says (and I paraphrase) "inasmuch as you've done this for the least of my brethren, you've done it for me", he's saying your horizontal relationship (what you did for your brethren) is equivalent to your vertical relationship (what you did for me).

I think that there's a significant distinction that needs to be made however.  At the end of the day, we are not God, because he is wholly other.  It is acceptable to say that we can't be right with God if we are not right with our brothers, but it is not acceptable to say that our brothers are God.

So who is saying our brothers are God?  I'm in awe of how you can manufacture a theological problem out of a simple scriptural point.  You have a very active imagination.

Maybe you're just a nimrod, CM.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

 

[ALAYMAN]

So who is saying our brothers are God?  I'm in awe of how you can manufacture a theological problem out of a simple scriptural point.  You have a very active imagination.

Jesus makes the distinction between the relationship of our brethren, and that of our Father.  To make those relationships identical, or synonymous, refutes the delineation made in the passage.  Are you suggesting that persons will always have fractured relationships (ought against a brother) if they are not in right fellowship with God?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Maybe you're just a nimrod, CM.

no, just you. 

 

[rsc2a]

So who is saying our brothers are God?  I'm in awe of how you can manufacture a theological problem out of a simple scriptural point.  You have a very active imagination.

Jesus makes the distinction between the relationship of our brethren, and that of our Father.

No...He really doesn't. And John reiterates this point in his first epistle.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]To make those relationships identical, or synonymous, refutes the delineation made in the passage.[/quote]

No one is making them identical or synonymous.

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Are you suggesting that persons will always have fractured relationships (ought against a brother) if they are not in right fellowship with God?[/quote]

Yes.