Johnny Mac quote on reconciliation....

[ALAYMAN]

True worship is not enhanced by better music, better prayers, better architecture, or even better preaching. True worship is enhanced by better relationships between those who come to worship. Worship may be improved by our staying away from church until we have made things right with those with whom we know our relationship is strained or broken. When there is animosity or sin of any sort in our heart there cannot be integrity in our worship.

--John Macarthur



Thoughts?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

I agree with Smelling Coffee's response for the first part of the quote. John MacArthur lost me with this part.

"When there is animosity or sin of any sort in our heart there cannot be integrity in our worship."

Where would any of us be without Christ and His forgiveness? We are incapable of becoming sin-free. So the bolded phrase would have to be deleted for me to agree.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I agree with Smelling Coffee's response for the first part of the quote. John MacArthur lost me with this part.

Good to see you round here again.

Yeah, leaving the verse out of the OP was a mea culpa.  I meant to include it.

"When there is animosity or sin of any sort in our heart there cannot be integrity in our worship."

Where would any of us be without Christ and His forgiveness? We are incapable of becoming sin-free. So the bolded phrase would have to be deleted for me to agree.

Yeah, I agree, and think that he mis-spoke there, or at least didn't communicate with precision.

My main beef was the opening sentence, where he said that true worship is not enhanced by <better> preaching.  The word of God is a primary agent/means of our sanctification and is at the heart of evangelical Christianity from the beginning.  I think his exaggerated rhetoric was misplaced.  Yes, it is important to make sure that our horizontal relationships are in order before we approach our vertical worship, but the way he came across appeared to be presenting a false dichotomy.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]My main beef was the opening sentence, where he said that true worship is not enhanced by <better> preaching.  The word of God is a primary agent/means of our sanctification and is at the heart of evangelical Christianity from the beginning.  I think his exaggerated rhetoric was misplaced.  Yes, it is important to make sure that our horizontal relationships are in order before we approach our vertical worship, but the way he came across appeared to be presenting a false dichotomy.[/quote]

I would agree (with the exception of the underlined part), but I definitely wouldn't limit it to preaching. I would include the music, prayer, and architecture as well.

The problem I have with the underlined part is that I believe this horizontal/vertical division is also a false dichotomy.

 

[Torrent v.3]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]My main beef was the opening sentence, where he said that true worship is not enhanced by <better> preaching.  The word of God is a primary agent/means of our sanctification and is at the heart of evangelical Christianity from the beginning.  I think his exaggerated rhetoric was misplaced.  Yes, it is important to make sure that our horizontal relationships are in order before we approach our vertical worship, but the way he came across appeared to be presenting a false dichotomy.

I would agree (with the exception of the underlined part), but I definitely wouldn't limit it to preaching. I would include the music, prayer, and architecture as well.

The problem I have with the underlined part is that I believe this horizontal/vertical division is also a false dichotomy.
[/quote]

Are you saying that you believe that our horizontal relationships are tied to our vertical?  When you say the vertical/horizontal dichotomy is false, that is what I read.  I read that you think there is not really a dichotomy between how our vertical relationships and our horizontal relationships are affected by these things?

I think I kn ow Mac's point about preaching and worship.  It is that you cannot just come hear right and good preaching and think that it will automatically make your heart right before God.

 

[Mathew Ward]

The word of God is a primary agent/means of our sanctification and is at the heart of evangelical Christianity from the beginning.

The Word of God and the Spirit of God would be the agent/means of our sanctification.  Two sides of the same coin, if you please.

 

[16KJV11]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]My main beef was the opening sentence, where he said that true worship is not enhanced by <better> preaching.  The word of God is a primary agent/means of our sanctification and is at the heart of evangelical Christianity from the beginning.  I think his exaggerated rhetoric was misplaced.  Yes, it is important to make sure that our horizontal relationships are in order before we approach our vertical worship, but the way he came across appeared to be presenting a false dichotomy.

I would agree (with the exception of the underlined part), but I definitely wouldn't limit it to preaching. I would include the music, prayer, and architecture as well.

The problem I have with the underlined part is that I believe this horizontal/vertical division is also a false dichotomy.

Are you saying that you believe that our horizontal relationships are tied to our vertical?  When you say the vertical/horizontal dichotomy is false, that is what I read.  I read that you think there is not really a dichotomy between how our vertical relationships and our horizontal relationships are affected by these things?

I think I kn ow Mac's point about preaching and worship.  It is that you cannot just come hear right and good preaching and think that it will automatically make your heart right before God.
[/quote]
I agree...
Yesterday, a man whom I have known for 25 years came in to talk with me and a deacon in the church.
As a young Christian, I looked upon him as a type of role model.
He has been soured over the last 8 years about various issues in churches that he has been a part of.
He goes no where to church now, has a terrible, critical spirit which is evidenced by the fact that he is sarcastic and critical about everything Christian.
We've been praying for several years for him, but until he is humbled and right with God, no amount of 'worship' will help him.
In fact, unless he gets right with God, I feel sorry for any pastor of any church that he attends.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The problem I have with the underlined part is that I believe this horizontal/vertical division is also a false dichotomy.

How so?

 

[ALAYMAN]

I think I kn ow Mac's point about preaching and worship.  It is that you cannot just come hear right and good preaching and think that it will automatically make your heart right before God.

Yep, I have no doubt whatsoever that is what he was trying to say, he just said it in a clunky way.  He's a bit prone to those sort of imprecise and exaggerative tendencies.

 

[rsc2a]

The problem I have with the underlined part is that I believe this horizontal/vertical division is also a false dichotomy.

How so?

In the words of one pastor, "You cannot honestly say you love God if you hate people." In the words of Jesus, "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

 

[Castor Muscular]

The problem I have with the underlined part is that I believe this horizontal/vertical division is also a false dichotomy.

How so?

In the words of one pastor, "You cannot honestly say you love God if you hate people." In the words of Jesus, "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Also, "Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me."

 

[ALAYMAN]

In the words of one pastor, "You cannot honestly say you love God if you hate people." In the words of Jesus, "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Yeah, I agree, and so does Mac.  I said that the horizontal relationships ought to be in right standing before entering into corporate worship (which is what Matt 5:23-24 says, and Mac was saying, albeit a bit poorly).  How is that a false dichotomy?

It's a bit like saying don't go judging other people's problems when you have a giant log hanging out of your eye.  One ought to be cared for before doing the other.

 

[Castor Muscular]

I think he said the horizontal/vertical relationship is a false dichotomy.  In many (all?) respects, your horizontal relationship IS your vertical relationship. 

 

[rsc2a]

In the words of one pastor, "You cannot honestly say you love God if you hate people." In the words of Jesus, "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Yeah, I agree, and so does Mac.  I said that the horizontal relationships ought to be in right standing before entering into corporate worship (which is what Matt 5:23-24 says, and Mac was saying, albeit a bit poorly). 

Jesus wasn't making a rule for people before they were allowed to worship. He was speaking about principles and the how much more important inner heart is than outer actions (a la the entire Sermon on the Mount). As in the divorce thread, sometimes it's not possible to get your horizontal relationships in right standing; should these people avoid services altogether?

[quote author=ALAYMAN]How is that a false dichotomy?[/quote]

Because you didn't say corporate worship. You said vertical worship.

 

[rsc2a]

I think he said the horizontal/vertical relationship is a false dichotomy.  In many (all?) respects, your horizontal relationship IS your vertical relationship.

This.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I think he said the horizontal/vertical relationship is a false dichotomy.  In many (all?) respects, your horizontal relationship IS your vertical relationship.

Okay, I see that in a better light.  Yes, you can't be morally right by saying the vertical relationship may be in good standing if the horizontal is wrong (or vice versa).  You can't have one without the other.  I understood that before our conversation, but I don't think that Mac was advocating that you could have one without the other either, so I don't see how he presented a false dichotomy.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Jesus wasn't making a rule for people before they were allowed to worship. He was speaking about principles and the how much more important inner heart is than outer actions (a la the entire Sermon on the Mount). As in the divorce thread, sometimes it's not possible to get your horizontal relationships in right standing; should these people avoid services altogether?

Right, but how was Mac denying any of that?  Or how was his alleged false dichotomy demonstrating what you're claiming?

Because you didn't say corporate worship. You said vertical worship.

Most people understand the context of the scriptural discussion to be "the temple", and naturally place the context of the "vertical" into corporate worship.

 

[lnf]

It's quite possible that I am missing the whole point of this thread, but here goes...

I believe that our vertical relationship affects our horizontal relationship, which becomes evident in positive ways.

True story...

My son has lots of friends, many of whom are what I call "throwaways".  Their parents have either given up on them by kicking them out, or don't really care where they are or what they are doing. 

God has given me, through these young people, what I refer to as my "pool table" ministry.  Some I find easy to love, others, not so much. 

There is one particular young man I have struggled with...he did certain things on my property that actually caused me potential legal liability.  When I tried to talk to him about it, he totally discounted my point of view, and rudely, at that!  Erg! 

I actually know his mother.  She's a very personable individual.  But she has thrown away this child of hers.  Truth be told, he's homeless.  Honestly, I've really struggled with how to deal with him.  Whenever I saw him on my property, I would actually grimace...and this grieved my spirit.  I kept hearing, "if you don't show him the love of Christ, who will?"  So I started praying for him...not for our personal relationship...just for him.  It took awhile, but there came a day when I no longer grimaced when I saw him...and our relationship started to change.  He speaks to me with a smile on his face, with the utmost courtesy.  He takes it upon himself to do little chores around here, like pick up blowing trash and broken tree limbs in the yard...so early in the morning that I don't think he always knows when I see him doing it...although I do try to always praise him for his efforts. 

One day, I had to ask him to stop doing a certain thing (nothing illegal) because it interfered with my normal routine.  He was so totally apologetic about it...even though I wasn't angry.  He didn't know he was complicating things for me.  I looked him straight in the eye, and told him that it was OK...then he apologized again!  I cried tears of joy and thankfulness to God after he walked out of the house.

Honestly, I don't think this particular horizontal relationship would have ever improved, if I didn't treasure my vertical relationship.           

 

[ALAYMAN]

It's quite possible that I am missing the whole point of this thread, but here goes...         

Most importantly, I don't think you miss the point of the verse being discussed at all, and thanks for sharing that story.