Jack Schaap's fall and the future of the IFB movement!

Not sure his conclusion that "elder lead" church would solve the problem...every leadership structure can be abused by those who have a reason to do so.
 
T-Bone said:
Not sure his conclusion that "elder lead" church would solve the problem...every leadership structure can be abused by those who have a reason to do so.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Accountability is a key in leadership.  There is no system or denomination without these situations.  If FBC is truly about restoration and Schaap is truly repentant he should stay at the church he is a member and submit to discipline and accountability.  The goal is to restore.  If you believe in local church authority why run from that authority when it's directed at you.  Why not be a volunteer and clean the building or a janitor at the school?  Humilty is a lost gift.
 
I believe with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, I can make the argument that IFB died the day Jerry Falwell and TRBC left the BBF and became Southern Baptist.  The funeral has not yet been held, but the grave has certainly been dug.  I am not totally dogmatic about it, but it was definitely the beginning of the end of IFB having any kind of national relevance. 
There are still a lot of good IFB churches out there.  I believe the only major impact this may have, is that some of these good churches will leave IFB because of the terrible reputation they have earned for molesting children, treating women as second class citizens, etc.
I left IFB about 15 years ago.  It wasn't easy, my FIL was a IFB/BBF pastor and we went to his church for 20+ years.  If I was still in the "movement", this would certainly give me serious pause for consideration as to my continued membership.  Why be lumped in with all of these perverts, menagawd and hirelings when you don't have to be. No one is perfect, there have been people like Saaaap and Marty in every denomination.  However IFB and Roman Catholics are the first groups most people think of when sexual sins in the church are discussed. 
 
It has a future?!  :P

J/K

I'm a non-fundamentalist, non-Baptist outsider looking in. I'm not even a conservative evangelical anymore, having left it for mainline liturgical. I left for similar reasons to bruinboy's, no longer wanting to be associated with its reputation and culture.

But I think the article correctly identifies the main problems. I'm not sure about the solutions.
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
How do you see this affecting the IFB movement moving forward?
Click to expand...

Since the IFBXrs have bastardized the term "fundamentalist," the IFB movement has not been moving forward.
 
Schaap may be IFB, but he and his ilk have had no influence on our church.  I have never met the man, nor heard him preach, except today on the web, and I can see I haven't missed anything.  In fact, our members would have thrown him out long ago, given what I have heard him preach.  I have seen his kind before, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is arrogance.  I mean arrogance from the pulpit.  Like they can do no wrong.
 
jimmudcatgrant said:
Schaap may be IFB, but he and his ilk have had no influence on our church.  I have never met the man, nor heard him preach, except today on the web, and I can see I haven't missed anything.  In fact, our members would have thrown him out long ago, given what I have heard him preach.  I have seen his kind before, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is arrogance.  I mean arrogance from the pulpit.  Like they can do no wrong.
Click to expand...

Just keep thinking that thought. As a IFB, outsiders lump you and him together whether you like it or not.  It may not be fair, but it is absolutely 100% true.
 
jimmudcatgrant said:
Schaap may be IFB, but he and his ilk have had no influence on our church.  I have never met the man, nor heard him preach, except today on the web, and I can see I haven't missed anything.  In fact, our members would have thrown him out long ago, given what I have heard him preach.  I have seen his kind before, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is arrogance.  I mean arrogance from the pulpit.  Like they can do no wrong.
Click to expand...

In the real world he next to no influence if he had any. I have friends that live in Merrillville. To the locals FBC is a joke and the HA students are considered annoying at best.


ChuckBob
 
bruinboy said:
jimmudcatgrant said:
Schaap may be IFB, but he and his ilk have had no influence on our church.  I have never met the man, nor heard him preach, except today on the web, and I can see I haven't missed anything.  In fact, our members would have thrown him out long ago, given what I have heard him preach.  I have seen his kind before, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is arrogance.  I mean arrogance from the pulpit.  Like they can do no wrong.
Click to expand...

Just keep thinking that thought. As a IFB, outsiders lump you and him together whether you like it or not.  It may not be fair, but it is absolutely 100% true.
Click to expand...

You could be right, but if so, I have never heard about it from any of them, except those that link all religions together as evil.  The biggest grief I get about being an IFB is that all I want is for someone to visit our church so that we can pass the offering plate, or that women can't wear pants to church.  I tell them they don't have to give, nor should they if they aren't a member, and women can wear pants at our church.  Now I don't know what the church leadership would say if they knew I was telling people not to give.  ;D  JK 
 
I tell those folks that our church will give them money, not ask them for it.
 
I don't know about how much it will affect the "movement", but I'm more convinced than ever that performance-based Christianity is a cloak for carnal behavior, and that I'll redouble my focus to avoid that sort of trap and tripe with every fiber of my being.  That doesn't mean that practical Christianity won't result in true piety with personal convictions that is mocked by the world as "fundy", but as one Crown College grad/friend told me regarding many HACers long ago "they get the fruit before the root" (meaning they put external performance before a relationship with Christ).  Schaap is just another in a long line of posers that had the right Bible version, tapered haircut, music preferences, etc, but cleaning up the outside and erecting fences did nothing to curtail the raging lust that was hidden in his heart.
 
The fact that Schaap could have been considered a charismatic leader by the church and a large segment of the IFB movement shows the weakness in both, IMHO.
He was, at at best a buffoon who married the right girl! Again IMHO!

And, the segment of IFB-Dom that separated from Schaap did so not over his hersey and idiocy....but over the KJVO position....the only thing he got right!

This episode merely exposes the theological and philosophical fallacies of the movement as a whole.
I know there are exceptions, I'm IFB, but these idiots are the rule!

:'(
 
bruinboy said:
I believe with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, I can make the argument that IFB died the day Jerry Falwell and TRBC left the BBF and became Southern Baptist.  The funeral has not yet been held, but the grave has certainly been dug.  I am not totally dogmatic about it, but it was definitely the beginning of the end of IFB having any kind of national relevance. 
There are still a lot of good IFB churches out there.  I believe the only major impact this may have, is that some of these good churches will leave IFB because of the terrible reputation they have earned for molesting children, treating women as second class citizens, etc.
I left IFB about 15 years ago.  It wasn't easy, my FIL was a IFB/BBF pastor and we went to his church for 20+ years.  If I was still in the "movement", this would certainly give me serious pause for consideration as to my continued membership.  Why be lumped in with all of these perverts, menagawd and hirelings when you don't have to be. No one is perfect, there have been people like Saaaap and Marty in every denomination.  However IFB and Roman Catholics are the first groups most people think of when sexual sins in the church are discussed.
Click to expand...

I think you are a little biased in the influence you give Jerry and TRBC!  :)

Frankly, most people in our town don't know Schaap from squat!
IFBs here are cookie cutter models of the church in 1965!
Most of the people in our Baptist church couldn't tell you if we are IFB or SBC...and many don't know the difference. The problem with IFBs is their shallow theology and gullibility to follow a charismatic leader into the tank.
Sadly, that tenet is also present in the greater evangelical movement...TD Jakes is now a headliner in some of these so called evangelical meetings!

Sad, but true!
 
GoSteelers said:
T-Bone said:
Not sure his conclusion that "elder lead" church would solve the problem...every leadership structure can be abused by those who have a reason to do so.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Accountability is a key in leadership.  There is no system or denomination without these situations.  If FBC is truly about restoration and Schaap is truly repentant he should stay at the church he is a member and submit to discipline and accountability.  The goal is to restore.  If you believe in local church authority why run from that authority when it's directed at you.  Why not be a volunteer and clean the building or a janitor at the school?  Humilty is a lost gift.
Click to expand...

Well, I think the FBI and courts are going to have something to say about that.  He might have to submit to discipline and accountability from a prison cell.
 
jimmudcatgrant said:
bruinboy said:
jimmudcatgrant said:
Schaap may be IFB, but he and his ilk have had no influence on our church.  I have never met the man, nor heard him preach, except today on the web, and I can see I haven't missed anything.  In fact, our members would have thrown him out long ago, given what I have heard him preach.  I have seen his kind before, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is arrogance.  I mean arrogance from the pulpit.  Like they can do no wrong.
Click to expand...

Just keep thinking that thought. As a IFB, outsiders lump you and him together whether you like it or not.  It may not be fair, but it is absolutely 100% true.
Click to expand...

You could be right, but if so, I have never heard about it from any of them, except those that link all religions together as evil.  The biggest grief I get about being an IFB is that all I want is for someone to visit our church so that we can pass the offering plate, or that women can't wear pants to church. I tell them they don't have to give, nor should they if they aren't a member, and women can wear pants at our church.  Now I don't know what the church leadership would say if they knew I was telling people not to give.  ;D  JK
Click to expand...

I think you proved my point.  Just because you are IFB, people assume things that are not true. The average outsider, if they know what a IFB means, thinks legalism, and sex perverts, not necessarily in that order. 
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
bruinboy said:
I believe with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, I can make the argument that IFB died the day Jerry Falwell and TRBC left the BBF and became Southern Baptist.  The funeral has not yet been held, but the grave has certainly been dug.  I am not totally dogmatic about it, but it was definitely the beginning of the end of IFB having any kind of national relevance. 
There are still a lot of good IFB churches out there.  I believe the only major impact this may have, is that some of these good churches will leave IFB because of the terrible reputation they have earned for molesting children, treating women as second class citizens, etc.
I left IFB about 15 years ago.  It wasn't easy, my FIL was a IFB/BBF pastor and we went to his church for 20+ years.  If I was still in the "movement", this would certainly give me serious pause for consideration as to my continued membership.  Why be lumped in with all of these perverts, menagawd and hirelings when you don't have to be. No one is perfect, there have been people like Saaaap and Marty in every denomination.  However IFB and Roman Catholics are the first groups most people think of when sexual sins in the church are discussed.
Click to expand...

I think you are a little biased in the influence you give Jerry and TRBC!  :)
Click to expand...

Maybe, but I bet I build a better argument for reality than those who believe John the Baptist was the original Baptist or that the KJV is somehow a magic Bible. 

;D
 
bruinboy said:
jimmudcatgrant said:
bruinboy said:
jimmudcatgrant said:
Schaap may be IFB, but he and his ilk have had no influence on our church.  I have never met the man, nor heard him preach, except today on the web, and I can see I haven't missed anything.  In fact, our members would have thrown him out long ago, given what I have heard him preach.  I have seen his kind before, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is arrogance.  I mean arrogance from the pulpit.  Like they can do no wrong.
Click to expand...

Just keep thinking that thought. As a IFB, outsiders lump you and him together whether you like it or not.  It may not be fair, but it is absolutely 100% true.
Click to expand...

You could be right, but if so, I have never heard about it from any of them, except those that link all religions together as evil.  The biggest grief I get about being an IFB is that all I want is for someone to visit our church so that we can pass the offering plate, or that women can't wear pants to church. I tell them they don't have to give, nor should they if they aren't a member, and women can wear pants at our church.  Now I don't know what the church leadership would say if they knew I was telling people not to give.  ;D  JK
Click to expand...

I think you proved my point.  Just because you are IFB, people assume things that are not true. The average outsider, if they know what a IFB means, thinks legalism, and sex perverts, not necessarily in that order.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between what I said I am hearing and what you claim.  I don't think you have a leg to stand on.  How many people heard say it?  You seem to be the one name calling with your implications.
 
jimmudcatgrant said:
bruinboy said:
jimmudcatgrant said:
bruinboy said:
jimmudcatgrant said:
Schaap may be IFB, but he and his ilk have had no influence on our church.  I have never met the man, nor heard him preach, except today on the web, and I can see I haven't missed anything.  In fact, our members would have thrown him out long ago, given what I have heard him preach.  I have seen his kind before, and the one thing they all seem to have in common is arrogance.  I mean arrogance from the pulpit.  Like they can do no wrong.
Click to expand...

Just keep thinking that thought. As a IFB, outsiders lump you and him together whether you like it or not.  It may not be fair, but it is absolutely 100% true.
Click to expand...

You could be right, but if so, I have never heard about it from any of them, except those that link all religions together as evil.  The biggest grief I get about being an IFB is that all I want is for someone to visit our church so that we can pass the offering plate, or that women can't wear pants to church. I tell them they don't have to give, nor should they if they aren't a member, and women can wear pants at our church.  Now I don't know what the church leadership would say if they knew I was telling people not to give.  ;D  JK
Click to expand...

I think you proved my point.  Just because you are IFB, people assume things that are not true. The average outsider, if they know what a IFB means, thinks legalism, and sex perverts, not necessarily in that order.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between what I said I am hearing and what you claim.  I don't think you have a leg to stand on.  How many people heard say it?  You seem to be the one name calling with your implications.
Click to expand...

I don't know that I am calling anyone names, I certainly don't mean to. There are several people here who have said they left IFB because of what they concluded regarding these issues and/or what others believe.  I can't prove what I know to be true based on my personal experiences and what I have heard.  It doesn't really matter to me if anyone believes it on not. IFB didn't get the reputation it has based on all falsehoods. Please believe as you will.  Hope it works out for you. 
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top