Hurting People...

[16KJV11]

Tom, very well said. Yes, most each in our own way also carry hurt, questions, disallusionmnet. I wish Bro. Wilkerson well. Seems he has a good shoulder on his head, but from many accounts the mentality is still there as well as running rampant through IFBdom. They deny man worship while practicing it. They play the praying publican while living the Pharisee. They practice performance based Christianity while giving God all the glory. Then there are those who sit numb still wondering what happened. Either category we must realize it is not up to us to straighten out. As God calls us to salvation, each believer must be persuaded in his own heart as to practicing Christianity.

There are those who are still there that are salt of the earth trying to sort it all out. There are those still there carrying on as if nothing happened.... Fingers in the ears. Adult Charlie Brown charaster sound proceeding from the mouth.

You are right, Tom we must show mercy to all. I can't carry the water for Hammond any more. I can not explain all the internet rumors. I can not afford to have the FBCH/HAC label attached to my ministry. They carry too much baggage. At the same time I wish them no additional harm. I pray for them God's magnificent grace. May they know the knowledge of God's Word and practice it in humility.

Well said...

 

[Norefund]

Seconded (or thirded I guess)

Tom, very well said. Yes, most each in our own way also carry hurt, questions, disallusionmnet. I wish Bro. Wilkerson well. Seems he has a good shoulder on his head, but from many accounts the mentality is still there as well as running rampant through IFBdom. They deny man worship while practicing it. They play the praying publican while living the Pharisee. They practice performance based Christianity while giving God all the glory. Then there are those who sit numb still wondering what happened. Either category we must realize it is not up to us to straighten out. As God calls us to salvation, each believer must be persuaded in his own heart as to practicing Christianity.

There are those who are still there that are salt of the earth trying to sort it all out. There are those still there carrying on as if nothing happened.... Fingers in the ears. Adult Charlie Brown charaster sound proceeding from the mouth.

You are right, Tom we must show mercy to all. I can't carry the water for Hammond any more. I can not explain all the internet rumors. I can not afford to have the FBCH/HAC label attached to my ministry. They carry too much baggage. At the same time I wish them no additional harm. I pray for them God's magnificent grace. May they know the knowledge of God's Word and practice it in humility.

Well said...

 

[kaba]

Kaba, were you a bus worker? if so did you enjoy it? Did you move out of the area?

Yes I was on 89-3, Roger's bus from 82 to 85

 

[brainisengaged]

Tom, very well said. Yes, most each in our own way also carry hurt, questions, disallusionmnet. I wish Bro. Wilkerson well. Seems he has a good shoulder on his head, but from many accounts the mentality is still there as well as running rampant through IFBdom. They deny man worship while practicing it. They play the praying publican while living the Pharisee. They practice performance based Christianity while giving God all the glory. Then there are those who sit numb still wondering what happened. Either category we must realize it is not up to us to straighten out. As God calls us to salvation, each believer must be persuaded in his own heart as to practicing Christianity.

There are those who are still there that are salt of the earth trying to sort it all out. There are those still there carrying on as if nothing happened.... Fingers in the ears. Adult Charlie Brown charaster sound proceeding from the mouth.

You are right, Tom we must show mercy to all. I can't carry the water for Hammond any more. I can not explain all the internet rumors. I can not afford to have the FBCH/HAC label attached to my ministry. They carry too much baggage. At the same time I wish them no additional harm. I pray for them God's magnificent grace. May they know the knowledge of God's Word and practice it in humility.

Agreed, very well said. ESPECIALLY, you put into words something that had hitherto been only a vague awareness in my own mind. 'Deny man worship while practicing it...They play the praying publican while living the Pharisee. They practice performance based Christianity while giving God all the glory.'. Such an apt insight. My own state of mind is that I no longer automatically trust or respect anyone. It used to be different with me. We had Tom Williams for both services on Sunday. Relieved he did not get a standing ovation, those days seem to be over. But he did not get a 'pass' in my mind. I had to evaluate what he had to say through my new filter.

 

[sword]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival. 

 

[prophet]

Kaba, were you a bus worker? if so did you enjoy it? Did you move out of the area?

Yes I was on 89-3, Roger's bus from 82 to 85

Good thing he was into girls, or he mighta put the moves on you, huh, bozo?

Anishinaabe

 

[kaba]

Kaba, were you a bus worker? if so did you enjoy it? Did you move out of the area?

Yes I was on 89-3, Roger's bus from 82 to 85

Good thing he was into girls, or he mighta put the moves on you, huh, bozo?

Anishinaabe

He ran off with a college student not a bus kid.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

This is one result of Finneyism. It was all about outward appearances and the numbers so the pastors could brag about having the unction on "their" ministries.

This was about impressing their fellows.

Pure pride and arrogance.

The burned over areas are here again.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

This is one result of Finneyism. It was all about outward appearances and the numbers so the pastors could brag about having the unction on "their" ministries.

This was about impressing their fellows.

Pure pride and arrogance.

The burned over areas are here again.

Another ride on the Finney Flyer!

 

[bgwilkinson]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

This is one result of Finneyism. It was all about outward appearances and the numbers so the pastors could brag about having the unction on "their" ministries.

This was about impressing their fellows.

Pure pride and arrogance.

The burned over areas are here again.

Another ride on the Finney Flyer!

If only that is how IFBs viewed Finney rather than a great managawd to be emulated.

 

[Sherryh]

Baptist churches are dying because they are using the wrong tools to reach people...the Bible is being left on the shelf for man made books and toys.We can't forget God's word and the power of the Holy spirit... its also a combination of things a pastor that loves God more than things and popularity....I'm done... 8)

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

This is one result of Finneyism. It was all about outward appearances and the numbers so the pastors could brag about having the unction on "their" ministries.

This was about impressing their fellows.

Pure pride and arrogance.

The burned over areas are here again.

Another ride on the Finney Flyer!

If only that is how IFBs viewed Finney rather than a great managawd to be emulated.

I really don't get the infatuation.  I tried reading his bio once.  Got to frustrated with all of his criticism of the Baptists and put it down.

 

[16KJV11]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

So what is the excuse for the Southern Baptist, the American Baptist, several Black Baptist churches in the area struggling?
In our area, (about 85K population in a suburb 20 minutes outside of Pittsburgh),I only know of one Southern Baptist Church and they run about 75 on Sunday morning yet the have CCM, use multiple Bible versions and the pastor as far as I know doesn't play the man worship game to anyone.
I know this stuff b/c we actually have fellowship once in a while.
I spoke to someone who goes to the American Baptist Church in our area and they have a beautiful facility, but they can't seem to attract younger people.  BTW, it's is a completely committee run church, no dictatorship there.
I have a friend who drives a school bus for the same company that I do and he's a deacon in the black Baptist church.  They just hired a new preacher and he makes 1400 a month less than I do and has to be bivocational b/c they can't afford to pay him more.
That tells me that the church is struggling financially.
If you want to go outside the 'Baptist' camp altogether, here's an encouraging note:
I brought about 16 people to the Kent Hovind seminar held Robert Morris University.
The church that hosted it wass an AG church in town.  I know the pastor, I knocked on his door while out on visitation a few years back.  He's a nice guy and we had a good time fellowshiping. 
There were about 60 people there and we probably had the second largest group attend, and we have a tiny church.
Even more startling is that this AG church has had a 'ministry' on RMU campus for the last 10 years, and they could only get two Robert Morris students to attend the seminar.

 

[prophet]

Kaba, were you a bus worker? if so did you enjoy it? Did you move out of the area?

Yes I was on 89-3, Roger's bus from 82 to 85

Good thing he was into girls, or he mighta put the moves on you, huh, bozo?

Anishinaabe

He ran off with a college student not a bus kid.

1"did you ever work on a bus route?".
2"Yes I was on 89-3, Roger's bus from 82-85".
3."good thing he was..."
This is the order that the conversation followed.

Anishinaabe

 

[prophet]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

This is one result of Finneyism. It was all about outward appearances and the numbers so the pastors could brag about having the unction on "their" ministries.

This was about impressing their fellows.

Pure pride and arrogance.

The burned over areas are here again.

Another ride on the Finney Flyer!

If only that is how IFBs viewed Finney rather than a great managawd to be emulated.

I really don't get the infatuation.  I tried reading his bio once.  Got to frustrated with all of his criticism of the Baptists and put it down.

Exactly, same with Jones, Torrey, et al.  Non-Baptists attacking Baptists over doctrines that those Protestants were wrong on. 


Anishinaabe

 

[kaba]

Kaba, were you a bus worker? if so did you enjoy it? Did you move out of the area?

Yes I was on 89-3, Roger's bus from 82 to 85

Good thing he was into girls, or he mighta put the moves on you, huh, bozo?

Anishinaabe

He ran off with a college student not a bus kid.

1"did you ever work on a bus route?".
2"Yes I was on 89-3, Roger's bus from 82-85".
3."good thing he was..."
This is the order that the conversation followed.

Anishinaabe

And?

 

[sword]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

In our area, (about 85K population in a suburb 20 minutes outside of Pittsburgh),I only know of one Southern Baptist Church and they run about 75 on Sunday morning yet the have CCM, use multiple Bible versions and the pastor as far as I know doesn't play the man worship game to anyone.
I know this stuff b/c we actually have fellowship once in a while.
I spoke to someone who goes to the American Baptist Church in our area and they have a beautiful facility, but they can't seem to attract younger people.  BTW, it's is a completely committee run church, no dictatorship there.
I have a friend who drives a school bus for the same company that I do and he's a deacon in the black Baptist church.  They just hired a new preacher and he makes 1400 a month less than I do and has to be bivocational b/c they can't afford to pay him more.
That tells me that the church is struggling financially.
If you want to go outside the 'Baptist' camp altogether, here's an encouraging note:
I brought about 16 people to the Kent Hovind seminar held Robert Morris University.
The church that hosted it wass an AG church in town.  I know the pastor, I knocked on his door while out on visitation a few years back.  He's a nice guy and we had a good time fellowshiping. 
There were about 60 people there and we probably had the second largest group attend, and we have a tiny church.
Even more startling is that this AG church has had a 'ministry' on RMU campus for the last 10 years, and they could only get two Robert Morris students to attend the seminar.

So what is the excuse for the Southern Baptist, the American Baptist, several Black Baptist churches in the area struggling?

I will agree the statistics in most of the traditional denoms. show decline. You will also have to admit the numbers within the IFB are showing some of the steepest declines. The point is something must change or in 50 yrs we will be a thing of the past. We are only replacing our missionaries at a ratio of 1 for every 4 or 5 who retire and those who go are not staying as long. Our colleges are struggling for students and more Baptist church are closing their door or changing their brand than new ones are starting.

I still pose the question what can be done. What is the answer?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

In our area, (about 85K population in a suburb 20 minutes outside of Pittsburgh),I only know of one Southern Baptist Church and they run about 75 on Sunday morning yet the have CCM, use multiple Bible versions and the pastor as far as I know doesn't play the man worship game to anyone.
I know this stuff b/c we actually have fellowship once in a while.
I spoke to someone who goes to the American Baptist Church in our area and they have a beautiful facility, but they can't seem to attract younger people.  BTW, it's is a completely committee run church, no dictatorship there.
I have a friend who drives a school bus for the same company that I do and he's a deacon in the black Baptist church.  They just hired a new preacher and he makes 1400 a month less than I do and has to be bivocational b/c they can't afford to pay him more.
That tells me that the church is struggling financially.
If you want to go outside the 'Baptist' camp altogether, here's an encouraging note:
I brought about 16 people to the Kent Hovind seminar held Robert Morris University.
The church that hosted it wass an AG church in town.  I know the pastor, I knocked on his door while out on visitation a few years back.  He's a nice guy and we had a good time fellowshiping. 
There were about 60 people there and we probably had the second largest group attend, and we have a tiny church.
Even more startling is that this AG church has had a 'ministry' on RMU campus for the last 10 years, and they could only get two Robert Morris students to attend the seminar.

So what is the excuse for the Southern Baptist, the American Baptist, several Black Baptist churches in the area struggling?

I will agree the statistics in most of the traditional denoms. show decline. You will also have to admit the numbers within the IFB are showing some of the steepest declines. The point is something must change or in 50 yrs we will be a thing of the past. We are only replacing our missionaries at a ratio of 1 for every 4 or 5 who retire and those who go are not staying as long. Our colleges are struggling for students and more Baptist church are closing their door or changing their brand than new ones are starting.

I still pose the question what can be done. What is the answer?

I think there is a growth amongst home church groups. Americans are becoming disgusted with the corporate style/marketing needs of churches of all stripes and are looking for intimacy. Small groups just aren't cutting it.

Just something to consider...

 

[BALAAM]

Now wait just a minute here. Most all of the baptist preachers I know will go out to speak somewhere and will always report back that the spirit was excellent, the church was packed, and the altars were full. Scores saved and decisions made. Where did they all go?

Seriously, today my hat is off to Jim Binney. I heard him on the radio today and he was talking about people in church who greatly desire a deeper relationship with Christ and a closer walk with Him. He then said that he went to a conference once and a 'nationally known speaker ' ridiculed "worship" in church and ridiculed the "deeper lifers". He went on to say that he thinks most people in the average baptist church would have to look up just to see the bottom of casual christianity. (I think I know who that nationally know speaker was. Heard it many times myself)

 

[RAIDER]

Many IFB churches seem to be dying. There services no longer have power & fewer & fewer people are getting saved. They are losing long time members in record numbers, offerings are way down, & they no longer have the outreach they once had as churches. The next generation seems to be leaving in waves.  All this and the pastors appear to be in denial & refuse to admit anything is wrong. What is the future of the fundamental Baptist movement if something does not change?

God has promised to preserve his church but no one group or camp is assured survival.

Could be a bit of this also:

2 Timothy 4:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

4 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.