How do you decide the difference??

JustABigKid

JustABigKid

Member
Elect
Joined
Apr 23, 2013
Messages
451
Reaction score
5
Points
18
In everyone organization there has to be some sort of rules and process or it is just a mess.

I see that one of the biggest problems people encounter in churches is the "dictatorship" type of a pastor over the church.

However, if we go to the other extreme and we do as we see the Israelites did many times, "Every man did that which was right in HIS OWN eyes", church would be chaos.

So how do you decide when what is being done at a church is simply trying to maintain some order or it is a pastor trying to be a dictator??? When is that line crossed???

Just looking for personal feedback
 
Elder-led congregations. ;)
 
It means a body of elders/pastors leads the congregation jointly instead of one person running the show.

(And, I mean real elder-led, not *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* one person is ultimate authority "elder-led".)
 
rsc2a said:
It means a body of elders/pastors leads the congregation jointly instead of one person running the show.

(And, I mean real elder-led, not *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* one person is ultimate authority "elder-led".)
Click to expand...

So having a pastor and a few assistant pastors with a group of deacons or church selected leadership is not the same? correct?

How does this group of elders come into the place of that leadership role?
 
JustABigKid said:
rsc2a said:
It means a body of elders/pastors leads the congregation jointly instead of one person running the show.

(And, I mean real elder-led, not *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* one person is ultimate authority "elder-led".)
Click to expand...

So having a pastor and a few assistant pastors with a group of deacons or church selected leadership is not the same? correct?
Click to expand...

Correct. You have a group of pastors/elders. Some may preach. Some may never preach. (All should be able to teach.) Some (or only one) may be employed by the church. Some may not. Decisions are made jointly by all elders, not by a single individual.

Deacons have a role in the church. It's not leading the church. The role of deacon and elder are different (although, many "deacons" are de facto elders in a lot of settings.)

[quote author=JustABigKid]How does this group of elders come into the place of that leadership role?
[/quote]

It varies. Four of the most common ways I've seen are:

Elders appoint other elders.
Elders nominate elder candidates. Congregation votes on it.
Congregation nominates elders. Elders vote on it.
Congregation appoints elders.

Of these, I favor #2 most. Then the elders can vet the nominees and make sure they meet the requirements laid out in Scripture for elders.
 
rsc2a said:
Elder-led congregations. ;)
Click to expand...

What if all the elders are dictatorial - like a corporation? It's not really the structure but the spirit that makes the church dictatorial or not? If the pastor is known to be spiritual and faithful to God's word - he won't be dictatorial.
 
I think the trend tells the tale. 

Whether or not a church is Pastor-led or Elder-led, there will be multiple staff (whether paid/volunteer/advisory is immaterial) involved.  Each person comes with their own gifts and skill-set.  Are the people with expertise, knowledge and/or responsibility included in the decision-making process?  How is input received by those in authority?  Is it generally dismissed out of hand, or is it valued as an integral part of the decision-making process?  In meetings, do folks stay mute, looking like either bobble-heads or marble statues, or is there a lively discussion, with good participation? 

No reasonable person would think that all decisions should fall their way, but how often is sound counsel overridden? Always – you have a dictatorship.  Never – take off your rose-colored glasses.  Somewhere in between – well, you may just have a healthy church leadership…but keep paying attention…the tide can always turn. 
 
JustABigKid said:
In everyone organization there has to be some sort of rules and process or it is just a mess.

I see that one of the biggest problems people encounter in churches is the "dictatorship" type of a pastor over the church.

However, if we go to the other extreme and we do as we see the Israelites did many times, "Every man did that which was right in HIS OWN eyes", church would be chaos.

So how do you decide when what is being done at a church is simply trying to maintain some order or it is a pastor trying to be a dictator??? When is that line crossed???

Just looking for personal feedback
Click to expand...

Maybe the church was not meant to be an organization, hence said issues. Maybe the church was meant to be an organism instead.
 
brianb said:
rsc2a said:
Elder-led congregations. ;)
Click to expand...

What if all the elders are dictatorial - like a corporation? It's not really the structure but the spirit that makes the church dictatorial or not? If the pastor is known to be spiritual and faithful to God's word - he won't be dictatorial.
Click to expand...

1 - Someone will have to show me where the Bible teaches one-man authority for a local church. I have yet to see it.
2 - From a practical perspective, the chance of dictatorial rule is astronomically less when the power is divided among several equals instead of focused on one individual.
 
rsc2a said:
Elder-led congregations. ;)
Click to expand...

Best church I ever attended was an elder-led church.  They were free-willers, and they never missed an opportunity to tell me Calvinism was ob da debil, but it really was an excellent church.  I was never bored by the same old sermons, and I learned a lot. 
 
Smellin Coffee said:
Maybe the church was not meant to be an organization, hence said issues. Maybe the church was meant to be an organism instead.
Click to expand...

Maybe. Protoplasm even.  8)
 
JustABigKid said:
In everyone organization there has to be some sort of rules and process or it is just a mess.

I see that one of the biggest problems people encounter in churches is the "dictatorship" type of a pastor over the church.

However, if we go to the other extreme and we do as we see the Israelites did many times, "Every man did that which was right in HIS OWN eyes", church would be chaos.

So how do you decide when what is being done at a church is simply trying to maintain some order or it is a pastor trying to be a dictator??? When is that line crossed???

Just looking for personal feedback
Click to expand...

Well it appears, JustABig Kid,  you have a clear understanding of the dictator led church in the church you were raised up in.  You have seen first hand the trail of tears, the destroyed families and ruined lives that result from this type of place.  Sure there are "success" stories. Or at least we are led to believe there are.  I wonder if those "success" stories really are a success in the long run.  Only time will tell.
 
Our church has 5 Pastors...but in every situation I've ever seen, an equal elder situation always has one elder more equal than the others. Leadership is influence and leadership is never totally equal.....
 
rsc2a said:
Correct. You have a group of pastors/elders. Some may preach. Some may never preach. (All should be able to teach.)
Click to expand...

At our assembly, we have 6 elders, 3 split preaching duties. Joe does about %65 of the preaching, Pat and Tom split the other. 1 other Elder is very active in prison ministries, he travels around the state and holds classes at these institutions. A couple of deacons have given messages on occasion.

rsc2a said:
Deacons have a role in the church. It's not leading the church. The role of deacon and elder are different (although, many "deacons" are de facto elders in a lot of settings.)
Click to expand...

All our community/home groups are headed up by either an elder or one of the deacons. My home group his headed up by a deacon and is rumored to be appointed next elder if they decide to add another. He is really blessed with great teaching gifts. I think he will be a good pick.
We have a training program at our church called Leadership Lab where men are trained to present sermons/teaching classes. they are given 20 minutes to preach. a few times,after the elders approved, these men have shared their message to the congregation.

rsc2a said:
[quote author=JustABigKid]How does this group of elders come into the place of that leadership role?
Click to expand...

It varies. Four of the most common ways I've seen are:

Elders appoint other elders.
Elders nominate elder candidates. Congregation votes on it.
Congregation nominates elders. Elders vote on it.
Congregation appoints elders.

Of these, I favor #2 most. Then the elders can vet the nominees and make sure they meet the requirements laid out in Scripture for elders.
[/quote]

Elders appoint others at our assembly......
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
Our church has 5 Pastors...but in every situation I've ever seen, an equal elder situation always has one elder more equal than the others. Leadership is influence and leadership is never totally equal.....
Click to expand...

I agree to a point, at our assembly it is really hard to tell who the "top dog" is. One of our elders, who doesn't preach at all, and Joe, who does most of the preaching,seems to be the most influential, if you were to ask me. But all of them seem to lead in different ways.
 
Recovering IFB said:
Tarheel Baptist said:
Our church has 5 Pastors...but in every situation I've ever seen, an equal elder situation always has one elder more equal than the others. Leadership is influence and leadership is never totally equal.....
Click to expand...

I agree to a point, at our assembly it is really hard to tell who the "top dog" is. One of our elders, who doesn't preach at all, and Joe, who does most of the preaching,seems to be the most influential, if you were to ask me. But all of them seem to lead in different ways.
Click to expand...

In our church, I do most of the preaching in the Sunday services, although all of our Pastors have taken on that role from time to time. They all teach on regular basis...and they all lead in different areas of ministry over which they have responsibility.

Certainly the Pastor who teaches the most people, most often would usually have the most influence. What happens often in our ministry is a differing of opinions on a decision to be made or a direction to be taken.
That is when you find out who THE leader is...more often than not.

Leadership by committee is the least effective way to run anything, under most circumstances.
 
"I've searched all the parks in all the cities and found no statues of committees".
G.K. Chesterton
 
I appreciate all the feed back to my OP.

Now to further the quest for knowledge. If you have a church with a singular pastor that has men around him such as assistant pastors, deacons, etc. What would you as a church member do without splitting a church to make sure that you do not end up with a dictator?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top