"He Gets Us"

Gringo said:
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I have never understood how God could have created such a desperately wicked creature. What was his purpose in doing so?
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Man, as scripture states, was created good, with the potential for choice. He chose poorly. In a slightly more abstract/philosophical understanding, in the best possible scenarios of all conceivable worlds that God could create, He chose to give man the ability for man to love and obey Him, or to rebel and disobey. Responsibility dictates that we lay the blame where it properly lies.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Man, as scripture states, was created good, with the potential for choice. He chose poorly. In a slightly more abstract/philosophical understanding, in the best possible scenarios of all conceivable worlds that God could create, He chose to give man the ability for man to love and obey Him, or to rebel and disobey. Responsibility dictates that we lay the blame where it properly lies.
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I like your answer.
 
ALAYMAN said:
Man, as scripture states, was created good, with the potential for choice. He chose poorly. In a slightly more abstract/philosophical understanding, in the best possible scenarios of all conceivable worlds that God could create, He chose to give man the ability for man to love and obey Him, or to rebel and disobey. Responsibility dictates that we lay the blame where it properly lies.
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Amen.

This teaching from Romans chapter 1 is an excellent introduction to this topic.

 
abcaines said:
He didn't create anyone that way. We took it upon ourselves to go astray.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12
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No matter what one believes about the above, I think we'd all agree on the HORROR of everlasting pain and suffering - no matter whose fault it is.

Im just saying that I don't understand why, IN KNOWING how bad man would botch it up, and be "wicked", that he would proceed with a creation for whose shortcomings he knew he would have to punish and in such a HORROR filled manner.

I don't understand why he just didn't decide to enjoy all the angels WHO CHOSE to remain faithful to him as opposed to the ones WHO CHOSE to rebel INSTEAD OF creating a second creation that would rebel just like the first one did.

Why create "chapter 2"?

This is just one of many things I wonder about.
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Gringo said:
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No matter what one believes about the above, I think we'd all agree on the HORROR of everlasting pain and suffering - no matter whose fault it is.

Im just saying that I don't understand why, IN KNOWING how bad man would botch it up, and be "wicked", that he would proceed with a creation for whose shortcomings he knew he would have to punish and in such a HORROR filled manner.

I don't understand why he just didn't decide to enjoy all the angels WHO CHOSE to remain faithful to him as opposed to the ones WHO CHOSE to rebel INSTEAD OF creating a second creation that would rebel just like the first one did.

Why create "chapter 2"?

This is just one of many things I wonder about.
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You're forgetting one thing: His plan for redemption.

If God was aware of what man would do, He is also very aware of what He'd do to remedy the situation. The eternally existent Son came to earth and got the rawest deal one can imagine. He who was righteous and Holy took on a frail body and in that body took on our death then He rose again! So, God who foreknew what it would be like, DID IT ANYWAY!

Did He ever do such for angels?

We aren't called to understand... We are just called to accept His extravagant gift of love regardless of how little sense it makes to us.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, existing in the form of God,

did not consider equality with God

something to be grasped,

but emptied Himself,

taking the form of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,

He humbled Himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place

and gave Him the name above all names,

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11
 
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abcaines said:
You're forgetting one thing: His plan for redemption.

If God was aware of what man would do, He is also very aware of what He'd do to remedy the situation. The eternally existent Son came to earth and got the rawest deal one can imagine. He who was righteous and Holy took on a frail body and in that body took on our death then He rose again! So, God who foreknew what it would be like, DID IT ANYWAY!

Did He ever do such for angels?

We aren't called to understand... We are just called to accept His extravagant gift of love regardless of how little sense it makes to us.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, existing in the form of God,

did not consider equality with God

something to be grasped,

but emptied Himself,

taking the form of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

And being found in appearance as a man,

He humbled Himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place

and gave Him the name above all names,

that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 2:5-11
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No, I didn't forget "his plan for redemption". In fact, that was sort of my point. I was just saying that I don't understand WHY He would create a species that He knew was going to "fall" and need a redeemer; a redeemer that not everyone would even know about. The god of Hebrew literature is one of all infinite knowledge; of infinite power, just as Biscuit pointed out with his verses. I just wonder why it was necesarry to create a second species that he KNEW would become wicked just like the first one.

Not everyone can swallow things hook line and sinker. Some of us do ask questions and question things and cannot just "accept things".

Those are nice verses but they don't help me with wondering why God created something he knew would be failed and in need of a remedy.

Like, I don't understand why God felt he needed to create an enemy that he knew he would have to conquer but hasn't yet; instead He lets him run to and fro seeking whom he may devour. I don't understand that . I don't understand why God would create Hell for the devil and his angels but instead, puts "sinnners" there while he lets the Devil and his minions run free. I don't understand that and do wonder about it.

If one is reading this and tempted to tell me it is for God''s "glory", please . . . PLEASE . . . dont' tell that. I'll vomit. That's akin to scraping one's fingernails across a chalkboard. If you believe something so vile, do please keep it to yourself - at least in my presence.

I have a childhood friend whose husband died of cancer. He screamed in agony at the end and she said God got "glory" from it. Not everyone can hear that and let it pass. I certainly can't. Such a vile thing to say - or believe.
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ALAYMAN said:
Man, as scripture states, was created good, with the potential for choice. He chose poorly. In a slightly more abstract/philosophical understanding, in the best possible scenarios of all conceivable worlds that God could create, He chose to give man the ability for man to love and obey Him, or to rebel and disobey. Responsibility dictates that we lay the blame where it properly lies.
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I fully understand the concept you are bringing forth. I'm just saying that in KNOWING the outcome before it happened, I just wonder WHY God went ahead a second time (see Satan and his angels) and created a species (even if they are different) that would rebel against him. I just don't understand why He would do that. Inquiring minds want to know.
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Gringo said:
If one is reading this and tempted to tell me it is for God''s "glory", please . . . PLEASE . . . dont' tell that. I'll vomit. That's akin to scraping one's fingernails across a chalkboard. If you believe something so vile, do please keep it to yourself - at least in my presence.

I have a childhood friend whose husband died of cancer. He screamed in agony at the end and she said God got "glory" from it. Not everyone can hear that and let it pass. I certainly can't. Such a vile thing to say - or believe.
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I feel ya there. That is one thing you'll never hear me say. I think Christians get too glib about this.

We may not understand WHY God does what He does. "I don't know" is a perfectly valid answer in this case. But in spite of all that He foreknew, He went through with it anyway and allowed the consequences (for man's part) to fall on His Son. Again, I don't want to sound glib but God is ETERNAL... not just in a "no beginning or no ending" way but His intellect, His reasoning, His outlook... all of it is ETERNAL. Our finite minds cannot possibly grasp all of this.

Frankly, as I read what you say, you touch on more issues than can be covered on a forum like this.

May I make a suggestion? May I suggest you take it all to Him? If you don't believe He exists, then, what's there to worry about?
 
Gringo said:
Not everyone can swallow things hook line and sinker. Some of us do ask questions and question things and cannot just "accept things".

Those are nice verses but they don't help me with wondering why God created something he knew would be failed and in need of a remedy.

Like, I don't understand why God felt he needed to create an enemy that he knew he would have to conquer but hasn't yet; instead He lets him run to and fro seeking whom he may devour. I don't understand that . I don't understand why God would create Hell for the devil and his angels but instead, puts "sinnners" there while he lets the Devil and his minions run free. I don't understand that and do wonder about it.

If one is reading this and tempted to tell me it is for God''s "glory", please . . . PLEASE . . . dont' tell that. I'll vomit. That's akin to scraping one's fingernails across a chalkboard. If you believe something so vile, do please keep it to yourself - at least in my presence.

I have a childhood friend whose husband died of cancer. He screamed in agony at the end and she said God got "glory" from it. Not everyone can hear that and let it pass. I certainly can't. Such a vile thing to say - or believe.
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You aren’t the only one who has struggled with questions that can’t be answered. The controversy over Calvinism and Arminianism is something that most honest Christians have attempted to understand and explain but always seem to come up short. I have always struggled with Calvinism and yet I knew that there are so many plain verses that can’t be explained away such as God knowing the end from the beginning and what He has purposed He will bring it to pass.

In Romans chapter 9 the potter and the clay is a stumbling block for many people and had been for myself also. As I started reading more of Charles Spurgeon’s sermons and seeing the other side of what I had only been taught in Independent Fundamental Baptist circles, I realized I didn’t have all the answers. John MacArthur explained a lot of things for me concerning these passages that have always troubled me. Here are some things he talks about that made a lot of sense to me.

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will the thing formed say to him that formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”

“Paul is not addressing those with honest questions abut this difficult doctrine, but those who seek to excuse their own sin and unbelief” (v. 22). John MacArthur

Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—

“God allows some vessels to incur the just penalty of their sin – God’s wrath (Rom 1:18). God does not make men sinful, but he leaves them in the sin they have chosen (cf. Rom 9:18). God receives glory in his wrath as well as his mercy.” John MacArthur

Most view election in a negative light. If God did not choose some for salvation (which scripture seems to clearly teach) then none would be saved (Rom 3:10-12). Election shows God’s grace. If the clay pot repents, its destination is changed (Jeremiah 18:6-10).

 
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Gringo said:
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I fully understand the concept you are bringing forth. I'm just saying that in KNOWING the outcome before it happened, I just wonder WHY God went ahead a second time (see Satan and his angels) and created a species (even if they are different) that would rebel against him. I just don't understand why He would do that. Inquiring minds want to know.
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I have a son, he hasn't been anything near perfect, but I would still have him despite knowing what those imperfections were going to be prior to his birth (and I'm not close to being a sovereign, omniscient, omnipresent God).
 
ALAYMAN said:
I have a son, he hasn't been anything near perfect, but I would still have him despite knowing what those imperfections were going to be prior to his birth (and I'm not close to being a sovereign, omniscient, omnipresent God).
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But one would be considered a sadist if one had the ability/opportunity to show mercy on one's son and not send him to eternal flames yet still choose to send him there anyway.
 
Smellin Coffee said:
But one would be considered a sadist if one had the ability/opportunity to show mercy on one's son and not send him to eternal flames yet still choose to send him there anyway.
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You have to borrow from the Christian worldview's ethics to make such a pronouncement. Your argument is self-defeating.
 
Smellin Coffee said:
But one would be considered a sadist if one had the ability/opportunity to show mercy on one's son and not send him to eternal flames yet still choose to send him there anyway.
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Exactly.
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There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened.—C.S. Lewis
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abcaines said:
I feel ya there. That is one thing you'll never hear me say. I think Christians get too glib about this.

We may not understand WHY God does what He does. "I don't know" is a perfectly valid answer in this case. But in spite of all that He foreknew, He went through with it anyway and allowed the consequences (for man's part) to fall on His Son. Again, I don't want to sound glib but God is ETERNAL... not just in a "no beginning or no ending" way but His intellect, His reasoning, His outlook... all of it is ETERNAL. Our finite minds cannot possibly grasp all of this.

Frankly, as I read what you say, you touch on more issues than can be covered on a forum like this.

May I make a suggestion? May I suggest you take it all to Him? If you don't believe He exists, then, what's there to worry about?
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ALAYMAN said:
I have a son, he hasn't been anything near perfect, but I would still have him despite knowing what those imperfections were going to be prior to his birth (and I'm not close to being a sovereign, omniscient, omnipresent God).
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I know that you love your son (we've all seen you glow about him on here many times :)) and I wouldn't blame you, in knowing before his conception that he wouldnt be anything near perfect", to decide with Mrs Alayman to go ahead and concieve him anyway. That would be your right as the conciever and father. If you knew that one day, because of his rebellious attitude and refusal to change, that you would have to take him down and put him in a creamatorium - alive because he kept making mistakes, you would still have the right to do that as his father. But I would then, ask you, why, why would you let that happen. Why not, in loving him so much, spare your loved one the inevitable pain that he would have to suffer - by not conceiving him in the first place - if he was not going to survive anyway.

To me the question is not who has the right to concieve and the question is not who is guilty. The question to me - is why would you want to concieve a son who you knew was going to be rebellious and have to end up being burned alive. Why would you do that?

The god of Hebrew literature certainly has the right to do as he pleases. And by the way I agree with Biscuit that in the garden of biblical passages, a gorgeous field of tulips does seem probable.

I just wonder why. Thats all. I just wonder why.

As I said before, I have lots of "why"s, like why would he keep verballly silent all of these thousands of years as we each have differing thoughts about Him, as to his name, his requirements etc. Why doesnt he just HOLLER down from up there and "set us straight".

As I said, lots of questions.
 
Gringo said:
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I know that you love your son (we've all seen you glow about him on here many times :)) and I wouldn't blame you, in knowing before his conception that he wouldnt be anything near perfect", to decide with Mrs Alayman to go ahead and concieve him anyway. That would be your right as the conciever and father. If you knew that one day, because of his rebellious attitude and refusal to change, that you would have to take him down and put him in a creamatorium - alive because he kept making mistakes, you would still have the right to do that as his father. But I would then, ask you, why, why would you let that happen. Why not, in loving him so much, spare your loved one the inevitable pain that he would have to suffer - by not conceiving him in the first place - if he was not going to survive anyway.

To me the question is not who has the right to concieve and the question is not who is guilty. The question to me - is why would you want to concieve a son who you knew was going to be rebellious and have to end up being burned alive. Why would you do that?

The god of Hebrew literature certainly has the right to do as he pleases. And by the way I agree with Biscuit that in the garden of biblical passages, a gorgeous field of tulips does seem probable.

I just wonder why. Thats all. I just wonder why.

As I said before, I have lots of "why"s, like why would he keep verballly silent all of these thousands of years as we each have differing thoughts about Him, as to his name, his requirements etc. Why doesnt he just HOLLER down from up there and "set us straight".

As I said, lots of questions.
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I appreciate your question(s), and believe it or not, these sorts of questions are (like) ones that I’ve asked myself at times. Rather than spill a lot of ink/type I will give you a link to a short read…

Why did God create man if He knew man would sin?

It doesn’t address the idea specifically relating to eternal punishment in Hell, but I will try take a stab at that in a follow up post if you find the link above of some interest to answer your first question.
 
ALAYMAN said:
I appreciate your question(s), and believe it or not, these sorts of questions are (like) ones that I’ve asked myself at times. Rather than spill a lot of ink/type I will give you a link to a short read…

Why did God create man if He knew man would sin?

It doesn’t address the idea specifically relating to eternal punishment in Hell, but I will try take a stab at that in a follow up post if you find the link above of some interest to answer your first question.
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That is an excellent quick read.

Criticizing God for creating man even though He knew we'd sin is akin to a child who gets in trouble criticizing his mother for not aborting him. It's a wonder that God doesn't get sick of us impugning Him for everything He does. He can't do anything right, can He? We criticize Him for doing nothing when people do evil things but we criticize Him for condemning people to hell. We rebel against Him then turn around and wonder why evil exists. I'm glad I'm not in His position. You should be glad I'm not in His position because I'd have given up a long time ago and said, "[forget] the whole lot of you". All I can do is throw myself on His mercy knowing His Son took what I had coming to me.
 
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If one truly believes that we are evil sinners, held in the hands of a righteous but angry God over the pits of eternal flames, Who will pull us away from the terrible pit if we will but put our faith in His only begotten Son and accept the wonderful and kind gift that he has bestowed to HIs creation which chose sin, then,
one would be very foolish not to accept that gift. I agree with you on that. And I would hope that "the kindness" of The Heavenly Father extends to everyone and not just a few He chose.

I also agree that God was very nice to give us our senses; especially our sense of taste!! Yum, yum.

But acknowledging that he FOREKNEW and that, indeed, He is a "righteous" God, I still don't understand why "He created a batch of banana bread with too much salt that he knew he would have to throw in the trash, if He knew it was tainted before he ever began".

We can blame my lack of understanding on my lack of the teacher within me; something most of you do have.
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Here another question that apparently, we arent to worry about until we get to Heaven: why does God not extend salvation to angels that sided with His first creation who chose evil. Why can't a demon believe in Christ and be saved - since he is a creation that chose sin just like you and I did. ?
 
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