Hammond and Willow Creek

I remember the night we voted to build, without borrowing, and the $ that was presented to us.
I saw J.R. the next morning, and said:" is that $# even close?"
He said :"try double, and try to tell them that".
It was doomed from the get-go, because no one wanted to tell Jack-S:"No".
Then the spending went like a housewife with a credit card her husband hasn't seen yet.
We needed SNL's old junk? Why? Why did they throw it away?
The familiar stroke symptoms are reappearing, time to log off.

Anishinabe

 
The reason John Rice came back to FBC was to head up the construction on the church.  He made bookoo bucks off the church.  Enough to get his son off the hook from going to prison.  We didn't need that auditorium.  We were content with what we had.  Remodeling would have been just enough, but no, JS had to have his big building.  Now look where we're at.  We don't even fill the bottom floor now.  JS wanted to compete with Steve Munsey in Munster, IN.  Now we're stuck with a big eye sore of a church that we can't pay for, behind on bills and will never fill it even on good days. 
 
No doubt a lot went wrong, but I do not see how you can say we did not need the new auditorium. With chairs pulled out, you still could not find a seat in the old auditorium, especially on Sunday nights. At the peak under Schaap, before it began to deteriorate , we were getting close to filling the new auditorium. I remember on Sunday nights they were beginning to open up  the top shelf of the balcony, and many times it was half full.
From what I remember, it was not so much the new auditorium that ran up the spending but all of the other remodeling done in conjunction with its construction.
 
Exell said:
No doubt a lot went wrong, but I do not see how you can say we did not need the new auditorium. With chairs pulled out, you still could not find a seat in the old auditorium, especially on Sunday nights. At the peak under Schaap, before it began to deteriorate , we were getting close to filling the new auditorium. I remember on Sunday nights they were beginning to open up  the top shelf of the balcony, and many times it was half full.
From what I remember, it was not so much the new auditorium that ran up the spending but all of the other remodeling done in conjunction with its construction.
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We "estimated" it at 14 mil.  It came in at over 30.
We blew through the initial loan, and spent another 10 on lavish offices, and the 3rd floor finishing project, after the fact.  Russ and J.D. couldn't dump their buckets in fast enough, to keep up with EL and Jack-S.
The Rehabbing was done and paid for, prior to the N.A., for the most part, and wasn't the source of the debt.
The Carpet in Jack-S'S office cost as much as the remodel of  3 buildings on State St.
Never mind his house.

Anishinabe

 
prophet said:
Exell said:
No doubt a lot went wrong, but I do not see how you can say we did not need the new auditorium. With chairs pulled out, you still could not find a seat in the old auditorium, especially on Sunday nights. At the peak under Schaap, before it began to deteriorate , we were getting close to filling the new auditorium. I remember on Sunday nights they were beginning to open up  the top shelf of the balcony, and many times it was half full.
From what I remember, it was not so much the new auditorium that ran up the spending but all of the other remodeling done in conjunction with its construction.
Click to expand...
We "estimated" it at 14 mil.  It came in at over 30.
We blew through the initial loan, and spent another 10 on lavish offices, and the 3rd floor finishing project, after the fact.  Russ and J.D. couldn't dump their buckets in fast enough, to keep up with EL and Jack-S.
The Rehabbing was done and paid for, prior to the N.A., for the most part, and wasn't the source of the debt.
The Carpet in Jack-S'S office cost as much as the remodel of  3 buildings on State St.
Never mind his house.

Anishinabe
Click to expand...

WOW.

I remember being given a tour by one of the office people in the 3rd floor court building while it was under renovation.  I did ask: "Why does he need such a huge, elaborate office, and then a full apartment above his office?"  The response:  He is a CEO of a huge corporation that employees X thousand people.  why shouldn't he have a nice office?    :-\
 
I remember them saying, the reason they had to borrow more money was because of all the other remodeling going on at the same time. His explanation if I remember was that we needed to grow the Sunday school so that we could fill the auditorium. I don't think you can argue that the auditorium was needed. If you follow a lot of the church growth gurus, they talk about the law of 80%, I would say at one time, based purely on my observation that the church was getting close to 80% in the new auditorium. The old was definitely over 100%.

Schaap's carpet cost what it took to remodel three buildings? Come on. I really don't believe it, unless they remodeled them pretty cheap.
Schaap's house- it looked fairly average to me. I think they sold it for around 300 thousand. What is wrong with that?
My perception, and I could be wrong, was that Schaap had more than enough money coming in to pay for all this and at the time, to some degree it was needed. Then he started getting wacky. College enrollment dropped. Church attendance and offerings went down. Revenue streams dried up. All of which, I think drive him to greater wackiness... Pride distorts reality. To be fair, I believe that if the man who took the church was still pastoring it now, although I would have much to disagree with, I think the college and church would be thriving.
 
So, spending 250 K on a house, then selling it for 300 K, is fine with you?
Stay out of real estate.
Really, some of us on this thread have/had access to the $#'s, and they are painful to behold.

Anishinabe

 
What was it with Schaap and carpet? He would do the same thing at the college. He spent over $16K on the carpet in one office there.
 
qwerty said:
What was it with Schaap and carpet? He would do the same thing at the college. He spent over $16K on the carpet in one office there.
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Wonder what his club fed carpet looks like.


Funny, this same guy told me that the church couldn't afford to pay the mortgage on a 50 k house in Hammond for me, but he wanted me to "be on his team" the rest of my life.
I guess his team had water boys?
Anishinabe
 
I don't know. I have seen his house, there was nothing elaborate about it. It was very much a middle class type house. If he spent 250,000 on it and sold it for 300,000 that would seem about right if it was as small and pedestrian as he claims before the remodel. My point mainly is that is not elaborate, nor is it strange, nor would I consider it excess. I would have absolutely no problem with a church that size committing those kind of monies to a pastor they felt was going to be with them for the long haul. Now, if the financial dealings were not on the up and up that is another story. I do know  that ministers do not have to report monies for housing as a taxable income.

 
Exell said:
I don't know. I have seen his house, there was nothing elaborate about it. It was very much a middle class type house. If he spent 250,000 on it and sold it for 300,000 that would seem about right if it was as small and pedestrian as he claims before the remodel. My point mainly is that is not elaborate, nor is it strange, nor would I consider it excess. I would have absolutely no problem with a church that size committing those kind of monies to a pastor they felt was going to be with them for the long haul. Now, if the financial dealings were not on the up and up that is another story. I do know  that ministers do not have to report monies for housing as a taxable income.
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You toured it, or drove past it once?  And did you see it before the remodel? 
It was worth nearly 200k, prior to the 'pimp my house' upgrade.

Anishinabe

 
The house was hardly "pimped out". Like I said, it was an average middle class house.  If I take your word for it, that it was worth 200,000 before he put another 250,000 into it, then yea, there was probably some waste. But again, to be fair, his house was not in any way excess.

Schaap did not finish like he started. There is much I disagree with now concerning his philosophy of ministry. It is obvious that the last couple of years of his ministry that he went off the deep in, but I don't think he was a criminal (he obviously became one) or a charlatan and all in all until the end I think he was a decent guy.
 
prophet said:
So, spending 250 K on a house, then selling it for 300 K, is fine with you?
Stay out of real estate.
Really, some of us on this thread have/had access to the $#'s, and they are painful to behold.

Anishinabe
Click to expand...

What is wrong with a $50,000 profit?
 
Did you see the inside of the house, before and after?
Excess is by definition: more than is needed.
2 people occuppied this house, and it was restructured to match the luxury 4 bedroom mansions in the area. 
This would have made sense, were they planning to sell, and simply updated everything to match the neighborhood.
Does your sister live in a 300 k ranch in that neighborhood?
Mine does.
Schaap's house was a palace compared to hers, and hers was built new in 2003, and matched the neighborhood.
It was just another example of fiscal irresponsibility.

His doctrine was never right.
It was just revealed.

Anishinabe

 
Exell said:
I remember them saying, the reason they had to borrow more money was because of all the other remodeling going on at the same time. His explanation if I remember was that we needed to grow the Sunday school so that we could fill the auditorium. I don't think you can argue that the auditorium was needed. If you follow a lot of the church growth gurus, they talk about the law of 80%, I would say at one time, based purely on my observation that the church was getting close to 80% in the new auditorium. The old was definitely over 100%.

Schaap's carpet cost what it took to remodel three buildings? Come on. I really don't believe it, unless they remodeled them pretty cheap.
Schaap's house- it looked fairly average to me. I think they sold it for around 300 thousand. What is wrong with that?
My perception, and I could be wrong, was that Schaap had more than enough money coming in to pay for all this and at the time, to some degree it was needed. Then he started getting wacky. College enrollment dropped. Church attendance and offerings went down. Revenue streams dried up. All of which, I think drive him to greater wackiness... Pride distorts reality. To be fair, I believe that if the man who took the church was still pastoring it now, although I would have much to disagree with, I think the college and church would be thriving.
Click to expand...

coffeewithjesus302.jpg
 
qwerty said:
What was it with Schaap and carpet? He would do the same thing at the college. He spent over $16K on the carpet in one office there.
Click to expand...

The deacons did not exercise proper over site as is their duty to God and man.

He learned this because the deacons, could have but did not, rein in his father in law.

They allowed him to run wild in his managawdism, all in the cause of protecting his ministry.
 
Still There said:
  Now we're stuck with a big eye sore of a church that we can't pay for, behind on bills and will never fill it even on good days.
Click to expand...

coffeewithjesus517.jpg
 
Prophet, I know you and your dad and wouldn't want to argue with either one of you but I tend to disagree about their personal house. I too, thought that the house was very nice but not extravagant. His office, or offices on the other hand, I would consider opulent. The one in the old building, the one in the new, and from what I understand, the one he was working on at the college just before his demise.

One of the guys working on the new office at the college told me that the pope would drool over this one. And how dare I forget the office in the federal building! I always said that he seemed more like Donald Trump with a bible than a pastor.

Now, I have seen pics of the estate or horse farm in Crete with the inside of the house. Now that was a little over the top when nobody lived there.

And let us not forget the $3000.00 coffee machine in the federal building. Or the umpteen plasma screens in there. Kind of ironic when you think that they had a guy come in to preach at pastors school and centered his message around breaking the TV!
 
BALAAM said:
Prophet, I know you and your dad and wouldn't want to argue with either one of you but I tend to disagree about their personal house. I too, thought that the house was very nice but not extravagant. His office, or offices on the other hand, I would consider opulent. The one in the old building, the one in the new, and from what I understand, the one he was working on at the college just before his demise.

One of the guys working on the new office at the college told me that the pope would drool over this one. And how dare I forget the office in the federal building! I always said that he seemed more like Donald Trump with a bible than a pastor.

Now, I have seen pics of the estate or horse farm in Crete with the inside of the house. Now that was a little over the top when nobody lived there.

And let us not forget the $3000.00 coffee machine in the federal building. Or the umpteen plasma screens in there. Kind of ironic when you think that they had a guy come in to preach at pastors school and centered his message around breaking the TV!
Click to expand...
Same guy that table danced on our 14,000$ pulpit?
Larry Brown?
Shoulda preached against predatory counselling.

Anishinaabe

 
kaba said:
prophet said:
So, spending 250 K on a house, then selling it for 300 K, is fine with you?
Stay out of real estate.
Really, some of us on this thread have/had access to the $#'s, and they are painful to behold.

Anishinabe
Click to expand...

What is wrong with a $50,000 profit?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if this was answered yet or not but there was the cost of the initial purchase to be considered before the 250K in renovations.

If the 200 K pre-renovation estimate is correct then it took them 250K to earn 50K in equity then 4 out of 5 (80%) dollars spent were flushed down the drain.
 
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