HAC/FBCH vs A Cult

[RAIDER]

From time-to-time I read a post from someone who compares FBCH/HAC to a cult.  They may comment that they are trying to heal since they left.  They may act as if they need a deprogramming time.  They may allude to the thought that their life is a mess because of FBCH/HAC.

Personally I only spent 4 years as a college student.  I learned many life lessons that have helped me throughout my life.  I saw negative things that I left behind.  On my worst day at HAC/FBCH I never considered them a cult in any way.  I made the decision to attend HAC, and I made the decision to graduate.  I made the decision to leave after I graduated.

Now, I realize everyone's experience is different.  Some grew up at FBCH.  Some had parents who were on staff at HAC.  Some became staff members themselves.  Some stayed in the area after their HAC years.

Here is my topic for discussion - I realize that many on the HAC FFF are now anti HAC/FBCH.  Do you think it is fair to compare HAC to a cult? 

 

[cast.sheep]

Ohhhhhhh boyyyyyyyy....this is gonna be good. Let me go make some popcorn and get settled in......

 

[bgwilkinson]

Perhaps someone should list the characteristics of a cult.

 

[rsc2a]

he group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪ The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪ The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪ The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

‪ The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

‪ The group is preoccupied with making money.

‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪ The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

 

[bgwilkinson]

This is a good start rsc2a. I numbered them to make referral simpler.

The question arises how many of these characteristics does it take to be a bonafide cult?



The characteristics of a cult.

1. The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

2.‪ Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

3. ‪ Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

4. ‪ The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry—or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

5. ‪ The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar—or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

‪6.  The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

‪7.  The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

8.‪ The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

‪9.  The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt iin order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

10. ‪ Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

‪11.  The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

12.‪  The group is preoccupied with making money.

13. ‪ Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

14. ‪ Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

‪15.  The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.


Take Back Your Life: Recovering from Cults and Abusive Relationships by Janja Lalich and Madeleine Tobias (Berkeley: Bay Tree Publishing, 2006). It was adapted from a checklist originally developed by Michael Langone.


http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm] [url]http://www.csj.org/infoserv_cult101/checklis.htm[/url]

 

[rsc2a]

15/15?

 

[cast.sheep]

One could argue that being a follower of Christ (a true believer) would require many of these. I believe the difference is: being a follower of CHRIST through His Word and the urging of the Holy Spirit....or....following a MAN and/or institution.

Having spent decades at FBCH/HAC....reading through that list actually scared me a little. And made me thankful I am no longer there.

To be sure, I learned a lot of good things while there. Which made it that much harder to differentiate the good from bad.

And, yes, there is major de-programming afterward. We were told that the Word of God says this and that...only to find out later that it doesn't say that at all. It makes you question EVERYTHING you were ever taught as truth....including salvation. You have a real crisis of faith...which is why so many young people bolt from Christianity altogether. Many come back, but the don't go back there. They find a church that allows them to build a relationship with Christ...slowly...carefully...deliberately. They begin the de-programming...and reprogramming...two completely different things. They are called "compromisers" by their former leaders and shunned. It hurts. Eventually they come out the other side with a personal relationship with Christ, and they will tell you things like "I've never been happier" and "I've found the joy of the Lord". They discover grace. And if they use the term too much, they are attacked again.

It's a complicated mess. But God is bigger than FBCH. He is able.

So...yes...I think it is fair to make the comparison as asked in the OP.

 

[fishinnut]

During the days when Jackie-boy was defending himself from all the accusations & was interviewed & questioned on a national TV show on which he said something akin to "I have only had personal relationships with mother of my children", I visited with a pastor friend. This guy was within 40 miles of Hammond & his Christian school competed against HBS sports teams.

He told me that he received a visit from on e of the FBCH staff members (a guy who sat on the platform for decades) asking him if he was loyal to JH. He told them he was loyal to Christ & Christ alone & asked them to leave. He looked me right in the eyes & said something akin to, "I think they have themselves some sort of cult over there in Hammond."

I also know of missionaries on foreign mission fields who received a letter from FBCH asking them if they were loyal to a man..............you guessed it............JH.

Cult.......? Earmarks of a cult......you think?

 

[kaba]

From time-to-time I read a post from someone who compares FBCH/HAC to a cult.  They may comment that they are trying to heal since they left.  They may act as if they need a deprogramming time.  They may allude to the thought that their life is a mess because of FBCH/HAC.

Personally I only spent 4 years as a college student.  I learned many life lessons that have helped me throughout my life.  I saw negative things that I left behind.  On my worst day at HAC/FBCH I never considered them a cult in any way.  I made the decision to attend HAC, and I made the decision to graduate.  I made the decision to leave after I graduated.

Now, I realize everyone's experience is different.  Some grew up at FBCH.  Some had parents who were on staff at HAC.  Some became staff members themselves.  Some stayed in the area after their HAC years.

Here is my topic for discussion - I realize that many on the HAC FFF are now anti HAC/FBCH.  Do you think it is fair to compare HAC to a cult?

I agree with you Raider.  I never had the desire to stay behind after I graduated.

 

[no value]

Actual verbatim quotes from a kool-aid drinking HAC-grad pastor. Cult or no cult? Check it out...

“God has a chain of command. It is up to the people to submit and obey and humble themselves to the pastor no matter how the pastor acts or treats you.”

“God will plague you if you continue your insubordination of the leadership.”

“You had better be careful when you get mad at the preacher.”

“If you knew the real (pastor’s name), you wouldn’t let me be your pastor.” 

“I think your church deserves your loyalty.”   

“If you’re not at peace with the man of God you’re going to have a problem in your life.”

“If you’re not at peace with the preacher you’re not right with God!”

“I wouldn’t be the pastor if you had not voted for me.”

“I proudly wear my Hyles-Anderson College ring.”

“Most church problems are from people who cannot be submissive.”

“When it comes to Bible colleges this church doesn’t approve, we will never darken their door.”

“I was ashamed at the way our country reacted on September 11th.”

 

[kaba]

no value, Not ALL HAC/IFB graudates hold to those quotes! True there are some BAD graduates, but there are also some very balanced guys that Pastor. I am not on the mindset that all IFB colleges should be destroyed. guaranteed they should be re-evaluated and cleaned up a bit!!

 

[cast.sheep]

no value, Not ALL HAC/IFB graudates hold to those quotes! True there are some BAD graduates, but there are also some very balanced guys that Pastor. I am not on the mindset that all IFB colleges should be destroyed. guaranteed they should be re-evaluated and cleaned up a bit!!

I didn't think No Value was attributing those quotes to ALL HAC/IFB graduates.  He attributed it to ONE.

I have heard it from TWO.

There are plenty of good ones out there.  My current pastor is one of them.  IFB, but not of the HAC variety. 

 

[no value]

no value, Not ALL HAC/IFB graudates hold to those quotes! True there are some BAD graduates, but there are also some very balanced guys that Pastor. I am not on the mindset that all IFB colleges should be destroyed. guaranteed they should be re-evaluated and cleaned up a bit!!

Point well made and I agree.

 

[sword]

Actual verbatim quotes from a kool-aid drinking HAC-grad pastor. Cult or no cult? Check it out...

“God has a chain of command. It is up to the people to submit and obey and humble themselves to the pastor no matter how the pastor acts or treats you.”

“God will plague you if you continue your insubordination of the leadership.”

“You had better be careful when you get mad at the preacher.

“I think your church deserves your loyalty.”

“If you’re not at peace with the man of God you’re going to have a problem in your life.”

“If you’re not at peace with the preacher you’re not right with God!”

“I proudly wear my Hyles-Anderson College ring.”

“Most church problems are from people who cannot be submissive.”

“When it comes to Bible colleges this church doesn’t approve, we will never darken their door.”

Anyone who travels alot could name several dozen or more pastors who would agree with the above list.  The "my way or the high way" attitude is not all that uncommon.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Where did that list of 15 come from?

 

[Binaca Chugger]

Actual verbatim quotes from a kool-aid drinking HAC-grad pastor. Cult or no cult? Check it out...

“God has a chain of command. It is up to the people to submit and obey and humble themselves to the pastor no matter how the pastor acts or treats you.”

“God will plague you if you continue your insubordination of the leadership.”

“You had better be careful when you get mad at the preacher.”

“If you knew the real (pastor’s name), you wouldn’t let me be your pastor.” 

“I think your church deserves your loyalty.”   

“If you’re not at peace with the man of God you’re going to have a problem in your life.”

“If you’re not at peace with the preacher you’re not right with God!”

“I wouldn’t be the pastor if you had not voted for me.”

“I proudly wear my Hyles-Anderson College ring.”

“Most church problems are from people who cannot be submissive.”

“When it comes to Bible colleges this church doesn’t approve, we will never darken their door.”

“I was ashamed at the way our country reacted on September 11th.”

Sounds like Jack Schaap.  Am I correct?

 

[Timotheus]

  Do you think it is fair to compare HAC to a cult?

Did Jack Schaap act like a cult leader?  (I would say yes - that is why he is in prison)
Did Dave Hyles act like a cult leader's son?  (I would also say yes - multiple women covered up by his father at FBC and at least 2 other churches with multiple women)
Seems like that would make FBC have some cultist parts - at least as it applies to the leadership.

I would not have originally called FBC cultist until I had personal experience in how they treated those who were trying to warn them about the pastor.
Eddie Lapina and Terry D. knew a year before Jack got caught that he was off his rocker; and they let it go until it was criminal.

 

[Sherryh]

I enjoyed my years at college. My husband worked for the college . I haven't been back since the 80s ...I don't have a desire to be in a big church. If the pastor preached something I didn't agree with I would quietly leave ...I've never had to do that so far. I don't idolized people they are humans not God.

 

[no value]

Actual verbatim quotes from a kool-aid drinking HAC-grad pastor. Cult or no cult? Check it out...

“God has a chain of command. It is up to the people to submit and obey and humble themselves to the pastor no matter how the pastor acts or treats you.”

“God will plague you if you continue your insubordination of the leadership.”

“You had better be careful when you get mad at the preacher.”

“If you knew the real (pastor’s name), you wouldn’t let me be your pastor.” 

“I think your church deserves your loyalty.”   

“If you’re not at peace with the man of God you’re going to have a problem in your life.”

“If you’re not at peace with the preacher you’re not right with God!”

“I wouldn’t be the pastor if you had not voted for me.”

“I proudly wear my Hyles-Anderson College ring.”

“Most church problems are from people who cannot be submissive.”

“When it comes to Bible colleges this church doesn’t approve, we will never darken their door.”

“I was ashamed at the way our country reacted on September 11th.”

Sounds like Jack Schaap.  Am I correct?

It was not Jack Schaap.

 

[prophet]

  Do you think it is fair to compare HAC to a cult?

Did Jack Schaap act like a cult leader?  (I would say yes - that is why he is in prison)
Did Dave Hyles act like a cult leader's son?  (I would also say yes - multiple women covered up by his father at FBC and at least 2 other churches with multiple women)
Seems like that would make FBC have some cultist parts - at least as it applies to the leadership.

I would not have originally called FBC cultist until I had personal experience in how they treated those who were trying to warn them about the pastor.
Eddie Lapina and Terry D. knew a year before Jack got caught that he was off his rocker; and they let it go until it was criminal.

The way dorm students were treated like minors, up to 25 years of age, was ABSOLUTELY CULTISH.

You need your music approved.
You need your haircut approved.
You need your clothes approved.

Whitewash the sepulchres, everyone, no matter what is inside, after all we must keep up appearances...
Obssessed much?

I have 10 children.

7 daughters.

You have to be a sick @&#+?:;"(_##=   to feel any lust for your own offspring.
But we were taught that there was almost no way for a Dad to interact with his daughters w/o engendering lust, etc.

I say, what kind of garbage was in Jack Hyles head?

How sick were the leaders, like Casteel?

How many were molesters?

So much goes through my mind, when I reflect, that I blow a circuit.

Blacks and Hispanics cant get along.

Bandaids and bananas.

On and on.

But the most CULTISH property to FBCH, was the witchcraft of works based sanctification.

Gal 3.