Eye for an eye

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]Funny thing is that God did just that, and the victory was in the surrender.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know

 

[rsc2a]

I think we have a Muslim troll, and an enemy of the United States of America on the board.

Just what we needed....yet another troll!

Because everyone that doesn't agree with your ideology is obviously a troll?

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]Funny thing is that God did just that, and the victory was in the surrender.

"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]

Actually, I was thisclose to moving to Libya for work. Part of my desire for going was so that I could be a witness and an advocate for Christ. Unfortunately, the bottom fell out before I got over there, and the company I work for pulled all their operations out.
[/quote]

That's honorable that you want to serve the Lord.  The point I was making though, was that if you preached that same message openly in the lands where these savages riot at the drop of a hat, you'd end up like Stephen faster than you can say Allahu Akbar.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=rsc2a]

Actually, I was thisclose to moving to Libya for work. Part of my desire for going was so that I could be a witness and an advocate for Christ. Unfortunately, the bottom fell out before I got over there, and the company I work for pulled all their operations out.

That's honorable that you want to serve the Lord.  The point I was making though, was that if you preached that same message openly in the lands where these savages riot at the drop of a hat, you'd end up like Stephen faster than you can say Allahu Akbar.
[/quote]

I believe there are ways to preach "openly" without preaching verbally. (I'm not saying you don't.)

"By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Street preaching (and door-to-door) witnessing is one of the least effective forms of evangelism.

My family practices evangelism by having neighbor's over for dinner, providing clothes for the family up the road that can't afford them (even though they look different than we do), praying with neighbors who are burying children, and openly living a life of Biblical joy and faith. There are people in my "mission field" (i.e. workplace) who tell me they strive to emulate certain aspects of my life even though I don't believe they are believers. Yet, they are very aware that my faith is the source of those aspects they are trying it emulate.

I am not trying to pray on street corners or blow trumpets with my tithe, but just hoping that people can understand where I come from. I'm just saying there are ways to share the gospel with outsiders in a way so that the approach isn't offensive. The message will always be offensive to some; there is no reason to compound this by being boorish or showing a lack of compassion for others' sensibilities. The most effective evangelists out there as much (or more) "evangelistic" in their lifestyles as they are in their speech.

 

[The Real Bob]

I think we have a Muslim troll, and an enemy of the United States of America on the board.

Just what we needed....yet another troll!

Because everyone that doesn't agree with your ideology is obviously a troll?

No. Anyone as naive (AS IN HEAD IN THE SAND) as you can not possibly be real except to being a troll.  Either that, or you are about 8 years old sitting under some left wing, marxist, socialist, commie, progressive teacher.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=rsc2a]
I believe there are ways to preach "openly" without preaching verbally. (I'm not saying you don't.)

"By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."[/quote]

No offense, butyou seem to twist context and Scripture to suit your argument.  Having "love one for another" as you've cited it is from I John 3, which is a treatise on how to behave ourselves among one another in the house of God, not evangelism.

Street preaching (and door-to-door) witnessing is one of the least effective forms of evangelism.

Do you sense in mild form of irony that you cited a passage from Scriptures where "open air preaching" was the explicit context, while at the same time diminishing the value of such?

My family practices evangelism by having neighbor's over for dinner, providing clothes for the family up the road that can't afford them (even though they look different than we do), praying with neighbors who are burying children, and openly living a life of Biblical joy and faith. There are people in my "mission field" (i.e. workplace) who tell me they strive to emulate certain aspects of my life even though I don't believe they are believers. Yet, they are very aware that my faith is the source of those aspects they are trying it emulate.

Being salt and light does not preclude the heralding of the gospel.

I am not trying to pray on street corners or blow trumpets with my tithe,

This quote seems like the same sort of rebuke that a lot of pagans, and some Christians gave to Tim Tebow for his public displays of piety.  That seems judgmental to assume people's motives.  Plenty of open air evangelism and public displays of piety are wrought out of a sincere heart and devotion to God. 

... but just hoping that people can understand where I come from. I'm just saying there are ways to share the gospel with outsiders in a way so that the approach isn't offensive. The message will always be offensive to some; there is no reason to compound this by being boorish or showing a lack of compassion for others' sensibilities. The most effective evangelists out there as much (or more) "evangelistic" in their lifestyles as they are in their speech.

I agree that we ought not set out to offend, but that "religion of peace" given to us by Ishmael, is notorious for its bloodthirstiness.  They look for reasons to kill and riot, and the Koran incident is just one more in a long line of events that sets them off.  If it ain't the accidental burning of the Koran, it would be our western values and women showing their cheekbones and toenails.

 

[rsc2a]

Street preaching (and door-to-door) witnessing is one of the least effective forms of evangelism.

Do you sense in mild form of irony that you cited a passage from Scriptures where "open air preaching" was the explicit context, while at the same time diminishing the value of such?

Where do you see "open air preaching" as generally practiced today in the text? John the Baptist was in the wilderness. Jesus and others would sit on a hillside to teach and people would approach them. Paul would teach in the synagogues. They didn't set up shop on a street corner and scream at people.

My family practices evangelism by having neighbor's over for dinner, providing clothes for the family up the road that can't afford them (even though they look different than we do), praying with neighbors who are burying children, and openly living a life of Biblical joy and faith. There are people in my "mission field" (i.e. workplace) who tell me they strive to emulate certain aspects of my life even though I don't believe they are believers. Yet, they are very aware that my faith is the source of those aspects they are trying it emulate.

Being salt and light does not preclude the heralding of the gospel.

Being salt and light reveals the gospel. I'm not one that says you should never "use words" but "words" that don't come out off an existing relationship are nearly always "a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal" that people don't hear.

I am not trying to pray on street corners or blow trumpets with my tithe,

This quote seems like the same sort of rebuke that a lot of pagans, and some Christians gave to Tim Tebow for his public displays of piety.  That seems judgmental to assume people's motives.  Plenty of open air evangelism and public displays of piety are wrought out of a sincere heart and devotion to God. 

I completely agree. I just think that most people who practice this form of evangelism are misguided in how effective it really is.

I agree that we ought not set out to offend, but that "religion of peace" given to us by Ishmael, is notorious for its bloodthirstiness.  They look for reasons to kill and riot, and the Koran incident is just one more in a long line of events that sets them off.  If it ain't the accidental burning of the Koran, it would be our western values and women showing their cheekbones and toenails.

Again, I completely agree. But because they get riled up at an accidental burning of a Koran doesn't mean we should start intentionally setting Koran bonfires.

 

[ReformedBeliever]

Street preaching (and door-to-door) witnessing is one of the least effective forms of evangelism.

Do you sense in mild form of irony that you cited a passage from Scriptures where "open air preaching" was the explicit context, while at the same time diminishing the value of such?

Where do you see "open air preaching" as generally practiced today in the text? John the Baptist was in the wilderness. Jesus and others would sit on a hillside to teach and people would approach them. Paul would teach in the synagogues. They didn't set up shop on a street corner and scream at people.

My family practices evangelism by having neighbor's over for dinner, providing clothes for the family up the road that can't afford them (even though they look different than we do), praying with neighbors who are burying children, and openly living a life of Biblical joy and faith. There are people in my "mission field" (i.e. workplace) who tell me they strive to emulate certain aspects of my life even though I don't believe they are believers. Yet, they are very aware that my faith is the source of those aspects they are trying it emulate.

Being salt and light does not preclude the heralding of the gospel.

Being salt and light reveals the gospel. I'm not one that says you should never "use words" but "words" that don't come out off an existing relationship are nearly always "a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal" that people don't hear.

Open air preaching is simply preaching in the outdoors, which all of those examples fulfill. There is also much of this in the book Acts, which was the primary way the gospel was spread.

Your illusion to needing to have a relationship with people or otherwise they will see preaching as a noisy gong is faulty, due to my previous point. There is no indication when Paul preached on Mars Hill that he had a relationship with those people. What about all of the times when the preacher was attacked, such as Stephen and Paul, since they are apparently ineffective, perhaps they should of done it in a different manner?

I reject all pragmatic premises on how we should evangelize, we should emulate the Scriptures and publicly preach, while at the same time do the naturally occurring good works and related speech to the gospel that would occur in our day to day life.

If being effective is sharing Biblical truth with the unbelieving then public preaching would definitely be quite effective at doing so. However if being effective is equal to how many "converts" one gets, than that is quite subjective.

It also opens a discussion on whether or not you believe that a dead in sins, child of wrath, who is at enmity with God is somehow more likely to truly be regenerated by God because there is a relationship with someone else.

The viewpoint could almost be guilty of glorifying the messenger above or equal to God, because apparently the conversion is dependent on having a relationship with the messenger, rather than the foolish means (preaching; 1 Corinthians 1) that God has chosen. Nowhere does Scripture teach that God using his foolish means is dependent on whether or not there is a relationship, it is not a prerequisite to God drawing a sinner to salvation.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Excellent thoughts.

Open air preaching is simply preaching in the outdoors, which all of those examples fulfill. There is also much of this in the book Acts, which was the primary way the gospel was spread.

Your illusion to needing to have a relationship with people or otherwise they will see preaching as a noisy gong is faulty, due to my previous point. There is no indication when Paul preached on Mars Hill that he had a relationship with those people. What about all of the times when the preacher was attacked, such as Stephen and Paul, since they are apparently ineffective, perhaps they should of done it in a different manner?

I reject all pragmatic premises on how we should evangelize, we should emulate the Scriptures and publicly preach, while at the same time do the naturally occurring good works and related speech to the gospel that would occur in our day to day life.

If being effective is sharing Biblical truth with the unbelieving then public preaching would definitely be quite effective at doing so. However if being effective is equal to how many "converts" one gets, than that is quite subjective.

It also opens a discussion on whether or not you believe that a dead in sins, child of wrath, who is at enmity with God is somehow more likely to truly be regenerated by God because there is a relationship with someone else.

The viewpoint could almost be guilty of glorifying the messenger above or equal to God, because apparently the conversion is dependent on having a relationship with the messenger, rather than the foolish means (preaching; 1 Corinthians 1) that God has chosen. Nowhere does Scripture teach that God using his foolish means is dependent on whether or not there is a relationship, it is not a prerequisite to God drawing a sinner to salvation.
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[El Cid]

Why does this seem to be a prevailing attitude among some flavors of Christianity? It seems to be is the opposite of what Christ preached.

Sad but it seems to be true.  "Those who do not stand together will fall separately" or "those who do not fight together will die alone."  Something like that.

 

[The Real Bob]

Why does this seem to be a prevailing attitude among some flavors of Christianity? It seems to be is the opposite of what Christ preached.

Sad but it seems to be true.  "Those who do not stand together will fall separately" or "those who do not fight together will die alone."  Something like that.

I'm still worried about who built the pyrimids.

 

[rsc2a]

Open air preaching is simply preaching in the outdoors, which all of those examples fulfill. There is also much of this in the book Acts, which was the primary way the gospel was spread.

Your illusion to needing to have a relationship with people or otherwise they will see preaching as a noisy gong is faulty, due to my previous point. There is no indication when Paul preached on Mars Hill that he had a relationship with those people. What about all of the times when the preacher was attacked, such as Stephen and Paul, since they are apparently ineffective, perhaps they should of done it in a different manner?

Look at the context. Where were they preaching? They were preaching in places of learning where people congregated to them. They didn't set up in a place where they were unwelcome and scream at people about the wrath of God like these people. In fact, your example (Mars Hill) was a place were people were persuaded by Paul and asked him to join them.

It also opens a discussion on whether or not you believe that a dead in sins, child of wrath, who is at enmity with God is somehow more likely to truly be regenerated by God because there is a relationship with someone else.

Sure it could. Yet only the most blind individual could say that God doesn't use individuals to accomplish His purposes, regardless of how Reformed you lean.

The viewpoint could almost be guilty of glorifying the messenger above or equal to God, because apparently the conversion is dependent on having a relationship with the messenger, rather than the foolish means (preaching; 1 Corinthians 1) that God has chosen. Nowhere does Scripture teach that God using his foolish means is dependent on whether or not there is a relationship, it is not a prerequisite to God drawing a sinner to salvation.

Who said anything about "dependent"? It's still normative, both in Scripture and in practice.