Ephesians 4:12

[subllibrm]

Where does the comma go?

KJV For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

ESV to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

NASB for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

This one matters a lot me thinks.

 

[Twisted]

In context with verse 11, the KJV is correct.

 

[Twisted]

The men listed in verse 11, given as gifts, are to:

1.  perfect the saints
2.  Work as ministers
3.  Edify the Body of Christ

 

[subllibrm]

The men listed in verse 11, given as gifts, are to:

1.  perfect the saints
2.  Work as ministers
3.  Edify the Body of Christ

What do the perfected saints do?
Is the work of the perfected saints ministry?
Are the perfected saints involved in the edification of the body?

 

[subllibrm]

The men listed in verse 11, given as gifts, are to:

1.  perfect the saints
2.  Work as ministers
3.  Edify the Body of Christ

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Why does the context of 11 force the need for the comma after saints? Even with the comma missing, the role of perfecting the saints still falls to the pastors/elders. The question then is, who is responsible for the work of the ministry?

 

[Walt]

Where does the comma go?

KJV For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

ESV to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

NASB for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

This one matters a lot me thinks.

Indeed... It certainly appears to just be a list of three:
1) The perfecting the saints
2) The work of the ministry
3) The edifying of the body of Christ

I have heard preaching (beating) that the gifts are to get the saints to do the work of the ministry.  Interesting question and the meaning does indeed change.

 

[subllibrm]

Where does the comma go?

KJV For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

ESV to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

NASB for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

This one matters a lot me thinks.

Indeed... It certainly appears to just be a list of three:
1) The perfecting the saints
2) The work of the ministry
3) The edifying of the body of Christ

I have heard preaching (beating) that the gifts are to get the saints to do the work of the ministry.  Interesting question and the meaning does indeed change.

I believe the work of the ministry is the responsibility of the saints. Training them to do so is the responsibility of the pastor/teacher.

 

[cpizzle]

What if all the comma's are removed and it is saying that the saints are to be perfected in order to do the work of the ministry which is edifying the body?

 

[subllibrm]

What if all the comma's are removed and it is saying that the saints are to be perfected in order to do the work of the ministry which is edifying the body?

There are no commas in the Greek. So who decided where they go?

 

[cpizzle]

What if all the comma's are removed and it is saying that the saints are to be perfected in order to do the work of the ministry which is edifying the body?

There are no commas in the Greek. So who decided where they go?

This is why you have to ask yourself if translation/preservation is a work of man or the Holy Ghost?  If you believe God leads in translation, then you need to find out which "version" he perfectly preserved and use it exclusively.  If you believe "man" and "scholarship" is responsible, then you can only hope for the best because you can never be certain of the truth. 

 

[subllibrm]

What if all the comma's are removed and it is saying that the saints are to be perfected in order to do the work of the ministry which is edifying the body?

There are no commas in the Greek. So who decided where they go?

This is why you have to ask yourself if translation/preservation is a work of man or the Holy Ghost?  If you believe God leads in translation, then you need to find out which "version" he perfectly preserved and use it exclusively.  If you believe "man" and "scholarship" is responsible, then you can only hope for the best because you can never be certain of the truth.

I get it, re-inspiration.

Doesn't answer the core question of the passage though. Who is responsible for the work of the ministry? If it all falls to the pastor/teacher then the rest of us are merely spectators.

 

[Twisted]

Doesn't answer the core question of the passage though. Who is responsible for the work of the ministry? If it all falls to the pastor/teacher then the rest of us are merely spectators.

Here is what one preacher says about this passage:

"It is true that the work of the gifted men is to perfect the Saints so that they (the Saints) can minister and edify others, but both meanings are in the King James as it is stated.  Nearly every version since 1880 gives the latter meaning only, instead of the three listed above."

 

[cpizzle]

I get it, re-inspiration.
[/quote]

Believing that God moves in the translation and preservation of his Word doesn't require you to believe in "double inspiration" as we commonly define it.  Inspiration can be nothing more than the leading of the Holy Spirit.

 

[cpizzle]

Doesn't answer the core question of the passage though. Who is responsible for the work of the ministry? If it all falls to the pastor/teacher then the rest of us are merely spectators.

Don't let an "obscure" passage contradict a "clear" passage.  If this verse was omitted, would you think that only Preachers/Teachers who do the work of the ministry?  No, you take the Bible as a whole and understand that the Body of Christ is made up of many members (eyes, ears, nose, toes....) and each one must work together for the ministry of the saints.

 

[subllibrm]

Doesn't answer the core question of the passage though. Who is responsible for the work of the ministry? If it all falls to the pastor/teacher then the rest of us are merely spectators.

Here is what one preacher says about this passage:

"It is true that the work of the gifted men is to perfect the Saints so that they (the Saints) can minister and edify others, but both meanings are in the King James as it is stated.  Nearly every version since 1880 gives the latter meaning only, instead of the three listed above."

I have no argument with that. I do have an issue with how it plays out in practical terms.

The small church pastor who complains that he is over worked but wont allow anyone else to help.

The people in the church who gripe if the pastor misses a hospital call when they themselves didn't make a visit either.

Apply that across the full gamut of church activity and you should be able to see why it is a problem. And at the culmination of it all is the body. The body is not healthy when the head says "I have no need of these hands" or the feet say "yeah, well I know better than the head" and so on. Clergy/laity is not biblical IMO. It is divisive and limits the effectiveness of the body to accomplish all that God desires.

 

[subllibrm]

Doesn't answer the core question of the passage though. Who is responsible for the work of the ministry? If it all falls to the pastor/teacher then the rest of us are merely spectators.

Don't let an "obscure" passage contradict a "clear" passage.  If this verse was omitted, would you think that only Preachers/Teachers who do the work of the ministry?  No, you take the Bible as a whole and understand that the Body of Christ is made up of many members (eyes, ears, nose, toes....) and each one must work together for the ministry of the saints.

I agree. That is why I am pointing out the misuse of this passage to make distinctions where there are none.

I will give two quick examples:

Pastor of a small church lamenting that he must leave his family to take Junior High boys to a winter retreat because there is no one else (no youth pastor) to do it. Yet most of those boys had fathers who were not even considered for the task.

A man (my father in law) noting that as a widowed lady drove away from a church service that her power steering was squealing and "someone" (church leaders?) should do something about it.

Those are the marks of an unhealthy body.

 

[subllibrm]

Believing that God moves in the translation and preservation of his Word doesn't require you to believe in "double inspiration" as we commonly define it.  Inspiration can be nothing more than the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Let's say that you and another fellow sit down to translate the KJV into French. Both of you pray earnestly for the Holy Spirit to guide your efforts. When you are done, will you have both create identical words, sentences and paragraphs? If they are different did the Holy Spirit fail? Did you or your friend? Will the French reader understand the Glories of God and His plan for salvation from only one of them?

 

[Twisted]

Doesn't answer the core question of the passage though. Who is responsible for the work of the ministry? If it all falls to the pastor/teacher then the rest of us are merely spectators.

Here is what one preacher says about this passage:

"It is true that the work of the gifted men is to perfect the Saints so that they (the Saints) can minister and edify others, but both meanings are in the King James as it is stated.  Nearly every version since 1880 gives the latter meaning only, instead of the three listed above."

I have no argument with that. I do have an issue with how it plays out in practical terms.

The small church pastor who complains that he is over worked but wont allow anyone else to help.

The people in the church who gripe if the pastor misses a hospital call when they themselves didn't make a visit either.

Apply that across the full gamut of church activity and you should be able to see why it is a problem. And at the culmination of it all is the body. The body is not healthy when the head says "I have no need of these hands" or the feet say "yeah, well I know better than the head" and so on. Clergy/laity is not biblical IMO. It is divisive and limits the effectiveness of the body to accomplish all that God desires.

Then your issue is with people, not Scripture.

 

[subllibrm]

Doesn't answer the core question of the passage though. Who is responsible for the work of the ministry? If it all falls to the pastor/teacher then the rest of us are merely spectators.

Here is what one preacher says about this passage:

"It is true that the work of the gifted men is to perfect the Saints so that they (the Saints) can minister and edify others, but both meanings are in the King James as it is stated.  Nearly every version since 1880 gives the latter meaning only, instead of the three listed above."

I have no argument with that. I do have an issue with how it plays out in practical terms.

The small church pastor who complains that he is over worked but wont allow anyone else to help.

The people in the church who gripe if the pastor misses a hospital call when they themselves didn't make a visit either.

Apply that across the full gamut of church activity and you should be able to see why it is a problem. And at the culmination of it all is the body. The body is not healthy when the head says "I have no need of these hands" or the feet say "yeah, well I know better than the head" and so on. Clergy/laity is not biblical IMO. It is divisive and limits the effectiveness of the body to accomplish all that God desires.

Then your issue is with people, not Scripture.

How people apply scripture, yes. Isn't hat what the vast majority of our discussions and disagreements are about?

 

[Twisted]

How people apply scripture, yes. Isn't that what the vast majority of our discussions and disagreements are about?

Could've fooled me.  The OP is about Scripture.