Ephesians 2:8-9...which antecedent is the gift?

[ALAYMAN]

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Is faith AND/OR grace the gift of God being referred to/modified by "that not of yourselves"??

 

[Bob]

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Is faith AND/OR grace the gift of God being referred to/modified by "that not of yourselves"??

All of it.

Proof.

Phil 1:29 It has been given...to believe.

29οτι υμιν εχαρισθη το υπερ χριστου ου μονον το εις αυτον πιστευειν αλλα και το υπερ αυτου πασχειν

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ALAYMAN]Is faith AND/OR grace the gift of God being referred to/modified by "that not of yourselves"??
[/quote]

Yes.

 

[brianb]

The answer is in Greek grammar. I heard that somewhere.

 

[T-Bone]

I would say that the gift referred to here is "you have been saved"

 

[Nameless]

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Is faith AND/OR grace the gift of God being referred to/modified by "that not of yourselves"??

Grace is the only one that makes sense, but Paul wrote it, so maybe faith.

 

[brianb]

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Is faith AND/OR grace the gift of God being referred to/modified by "that not of yourselves"??

All of it.

Proof.

Phil 1:29 It has been given...to believe.

29οτι υμιν εχαρισθη το υπερ χριστου ου μονον το εις αυτον πιστευειν αλλα και το υπερ αυτου πασχειν

I've never heard that verse used to support that belief. If that is the case than why don't we also "suffer for his sake". Does God also give us suffering just as he gives us faith or does suffering just happen to some Christians like Paul? If faith or believing is a gift in the strictest sense of the word and not merely opportunity or privilege for every Christian logically suffering should also be. I believe that God gives us the privilege to suffer if we face opposition and the privilege to believe.
In regards to suffering - this is how the disciples in Acts 5:41 viewed suffering for Jesus. Just a thought. Not being dogmatic about it.

 

[Bob]

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Is faith AND/OR grace the gift of God being referred to/modified by "that not of yourselves"??

All of it.

Proof.

Phil 1:29 It has been given...to believe.

29οτι υμιν εχαρισθη το υπερ χριστου ου μονον το εις αυτον πιστευειν αλλα και το υπερ αυτου πασχειν

I've never heard that verse used to support that belief. If that is the case than why don't we also "suffer for his sake". Does God also give us suffering just as he gives us faith or does suffering just happen to some Christians like Paul? If faith or believing is a gift in the strictest sense of the word and not merely opportunity or privilege for every Christian logically suffering should also be. I believe that God gives us the privilege to suffer if we face opposition and the privilege to believe.
In regards to suffering - this is how the disciples in Acts 5:41 viewed suffering for Jesus. Just a thought. Not being dogmatic about it.

I believe that suffering is a gift.  When we suffer for Christ, we are taking his suffering to the world.

Col 1:24
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church...

We suffer, the world sees Christ in us.

 

[ALAYMAN]

The answer is in Greek grammar. I heard that somewhere.

I can't argue the point, for or against "that" referring to grace and/or faith, because I'm clueless about Greek, but like you, I've heard arguments by scholars from both sides fo the aisle that take differing interpretations about "faith" being the referent.

In standard english, one may easily read this as saying that faith is a gift. But in the original Greek, it becomes clear that this is not what Paul is saying here. The Greek word for "this" is touto, which is neuter, while the Greek word for "faith" is pistis, which is feminine. They don't agree in gender, so the "this" cannot refer to "faith". Rather, it refers to the antecedent of salvation by grace through faith. It is salvation itself that is said to be a gift, not faith. New Testament Greek scholar A. T. Robertson states:

'Grace' is God's part, 'faith' ours. And that [it] (kai touto) is neuter, not feminine taute, and so refers not to pistis [faith] or to charis [grace] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. (World Pictures in the New Testament, 4:525)
John Calvin agrees:

He does not mean that faith is the gift of God, but that salvation is given to us by God, or, that we obtain it by the gift of God. (Calvin's Commentaries, vol. 11, 145)

link

 

[Castor Muscular]

I would say that the gift referred to here is "you have been saved"

I would expand that to, "You are having been saved by grace through faith" -- and that is the gift. 

 

[biscuit1953]

I'm not an English language expert but my understanding is that there can only be one antecedent.  By comparing other passages, I believe "faith" would be the correct answer.

Phi 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Joh 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Faith isn't something that is manufactured inside an individual.  I can imagine somewhere in eternity an individual telling someone in hell,
"The reason I'm in heaven and you're not is because of my faith.  It is only because of my faith that I was saved."

I realize that one gets into Calvinism and all the controversies that involve but the fact of the matter is faith isn't something that is acquired apart from the grace of God.

 

[T-Bone]

I would say that the gift referred to here is "you have been saved"

I would expand that to, "You are having been saved by grace through faith" -- and that is the gift.

No real argument...I might say it this way that the gift is salvation...the means that God distributes the gift is faith and that is according to His grace.

 

[biscuit1953]

I would say that the gift referred to here is "you have been saved"

I would expand that to, "You are having been saved by grace through faith" -- and that is the gift.

No real argument...I might say it this way that the gift is salvation...the means that God distributes the gift is faith and that is according to His grace.

I like the way you put it.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'm not an English language expert but my understanding is that there can only be one antecedent.  By comparing other passages, I believe "faith" would be the correct answer.

Phi 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Joh 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Faith isn't something that is manufactured inside an individual.  I can imagine somewhere in eternity an individual telling someone in hell,
"The reason I'm in heaven and you're not is because of my faith.  It is only because of my faith that I was saved."

I realize that one gets into Calvinism and all the controversies that involve but the fact of the matter is faith isn't something that is acquired apart from the grace of God.

If it be true that  there is only one antecedent, then why would faith being the referent rather than grace (and salvation as a whole, as Tbone indicates), given that the passage (explicitly in v 1,5, and 7) up to this point is clearly talking about God's responsibility to make dead undeserving people spiritually alive by his grace?

 

[biscuit1953]

I'm not an English language expert but my understanding is that there can only be one antecedent.  By comparing other passages, I believe "faith" would be the correct answer.

Phi 1:29  For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Joh 6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Faith isn't something that is manufactured inside an individual.  I can imagine somewhere in eternity an individual telling someone in hell,
"The reason I'm in heaven and you're not is because of my faith.  It is only because of my faith that I was saved."

I realize that one gets into Calvinism and all the controversies that involve but the fact of the matter is faith isn't something that is acquired apart from the grace of God.

If it be true that  there is only one antecedent, then why would faith being the referent rather than grace (and salvation as a whole, as Tbone indicates), given that the passage (explicitly in v 1,5, and 7) up to this point is clearly talking about God's responsibility to make dead undeserving people spiritually alive by his grace?

I'm not dogmatic but, clearly faith is a gift just as repentance is (Acts 11:18).  Maybe salvation is the antecedent.  It is a gift also.  I like the way Tbone explained it.

 

[Anchor]

For by grace are ye saved through faith...

For by grace are ye saved...and that not of yourselves...

For by grace are ye saved...it is the gift of God...

For by grace are ye saved...not of works, lest any man should boast.

The point is grace; the product is salvation; all else is ancillary to it.

 

[T-Bone]

For by grace are ye saved through faith...

For by grace are ye saved...and that not of yourselves...

For by grace are ye saved...it is the gift of God...

For by grace are ye saved...not of works, lest any man should boast.

The point is grace; the product is salvation; all else is ancillary to it.

Not to try to diminish grace...for how could one and it still be grace?  But I would say the point is salvation...and grace is what explains the true mean of "gift".  It is true a gift, it is truly grace, what is---our salvation.

 

[Anchor]

For by grace are ye saved through faith...

For by grace are ye saved...and that not of yourselves...

For by grace are ye saved...it is the gift of God...

For by grace are ye saved...not of works, lest any man should boast.

The point is grace; the product is salvation; all else is ancillary to it.

Not to try to diminish grace...for how could one and it still be grace?  But I would say the point is salvation...and grace is what explains the true mean of "gift".  It is true a gift, it is truly grace, what is---our salvation.

It is really impossible in this context to separate grace and salvation regardless of how they are designated.  The point being the context is talking about salvation by grace alone,  not the "source" of faith. And since that is what it is talking about, it pretty much is all that it is talking about.

 

[Izdaari]

Mountain out of a molehill. 

We would not have grace, nor faith, nor salvation, except God gives them to us. None of it is of ourselves, all of it is from Him. Thank Him!

 

[T-Bone]

For by grace are ye saved through faith...

For by grace are ye saved...and that not of yourselves...

For by grace are ye saved...it is the gift of God...

For by grace are ye saved...not of works, lest any man should boast.

The point is grace; the product is salvation; all else is ancillary to it.

Not to try to diminish grace...for how could one and it still be grace?  But I would say the point is salvation...and grace is what explains the true mean of "gift".  It is true a gift, it is truly grace, what is---our salvation.

It is really impossible in this context to separate grace and salvation regardless of how they are designated.  The point being the context is talking about salvation by grace alone,  not the "source" of faith. And since that is what it is talking about, it pretty much is all that it is talking about.

I agree there is no separation in the context of biblical salvation apart from grace...they are always together...not sure I would make them the same thing!  Without God's grace there is no salvation....but is salvation the only way God's dispenses His grace?  Just some thoughts.