Easy vs. Hard Believism

[IFB X-Files]

Thank you, 16KJV11. I am a great admirer of John R. Rice and consider his book "Prayer: Asking and Receiving" to be one of the greatest books ever written. I am convinced that all of these men witnessed faithfully to others. But there is a problem with "Easy Believism," the doctrine that if you say the words "Jesús, please save me," and mean it, you are saved. There is no need for repentance, and no need for evidence of a new birth afterwards.

I'm afraid that all of these men believed in easy Believism, and many of their professions were not genuine. Billy Graham, Incidentally, was the king of easy believers, and it's a good thing that I was a Catholic, or I would not have known that I was going to Hell.

This statement was made in another thread and I thought it deserved its own.  When I read statements like the above, it usually means the statement is supported by an opinion rather than the Scriptures.

Example:  "But there is a problem with "Easy Believism," the doctrine that if you say the words "Jesus, please save me," and mean it, you are saved."

So according to Mr. Massi, it is impossible for a person that utters these words, while meaning it, to be saved.  At least that is what it appears he means.  Is he right or wrong?

First, Mr. Massi implies that a person who says the phrase, ""Jesus, please save me" and means it, is not saved because he did not repent!  I would argue than ANYONE who means "Jesus, please save me" HAS repented!  Did the Philippian jailer "repent"?  Did the Eunich "repent"?

(For the sake of this discussion, the phrase "means it" will be defined as out of the heart, and with all serious intentions)

Then, Mr. Massi appears to add another "qualifier" to prove of ones salvation.  And that is his phrase that "Easy Believism" has "no need for evidence of a new birth afterwards".

What say ye?

 

[lnf]

If I understood the previous thread, Mr. Massi's concern was based upon the premise that repeating someone else's prayer did not necessarily constitute true salvation, that there needed to be a repentance.

That being said, I do believe that a "deathbed" conversion is possible, like the crucified thief.  God sees the heart.  He knows the true meaning of any prayer, unlike us. 

I know of a retired pastor who claims hundreds (maybe even thousands by this time--he's getting up there in years) of instances of leading people to Christ.  Well, praise God!  And I pray it is actually true...but who can honestly know except God?  Many of those "conversions" were done by (for example) talking to diners in restaurants.  How many of those diners said the prayer to get "the crazy old man" away from their table so they could eat their food before it got cold?  But he counts those salvation prayers in his personal "plus column". 

Only God knows the answer to my question.

But, on the other hand, when people tell me they are saved, I believe them, regardless of their walk.  God meets us where we are.  And I am happy to come alongside them and help them along their path.

       

 

[IFB X-Files]

But, on the other hand, when people tell me they are saved, I believe them, regardless of their walk.  God meets us where we are.  And I am happy to come alongside them and help them along their path.

 

[Vince Massi]

"But, on the other hand, when people tell me they are saved, I believe them, regardless of their walk.  God meets us where we are.  And I am happy to come alongside them and help them along their path."

Good point, INF. Philip the deacon, starting with Isaiah, explained the plan of salvation to the Ethiopian eunuch. When the Ethiopian wanted to be baptized, Philip accepted his profession of faith.

However, someone posted on the old FFF that a group had come to their area and quickly "won" hundreds of people to Christ. But when the church followed up on them, most could only remember part of what had happened and had no idea of how to be saved.

 

[lnf]

Mr. Massi, you and I are in closer agreement than it may look on the surface.

But when the church followed up on them, most could only remember part of what had happened and had no idea of how to be saved.

This is exactly why I doubt the numbers reported by the retired pastor.  Discipleship is important, crucial, even.  Having someone repeat a prayer and then walking away from them, never to see them again concerns me.  Once the prayer has been said, I believe it is important to establish a connection.  You can't walk alongside someone if you don't even remember their name.

But again, if I were to encounter one of those people who repeated the prayer and they told me they were saved, I would believe them...and come alongside to help them on their path.  I would disciple them. 

What I would not do is tell them that they are not saved and send them away with a tract. 

 

[IFB X-Files]

However, someone posted on the old FFF that a group had come to their area and quickly "won" hundreds of people to Christ. But when the church followed up on them, most could only remember part of what had happened and had no idea of how to be saved. 

Please try and stay on target with the point of this thread.  Your comment has nothing to do with your post I quoted.  We all acknowledge that many that have "prayed a prayer" are still lost.  That's not the point.  There will always be more professors than possesors.

You stated that no one could say "Jesus, please save me," and mean it and be saved.  You claim that's "easy".  You claim they don't "repent".  You claim they must show fruit to prove they are saved.

 

[Vince Massi]

"You stated that no one could say "Jesus, please save me," and mean it and be saved.  You claim that's "easy".  You claim they don't "repent".  You claim they must show fruit to prove they are saved.

Nope.

I stated, and I repeat, that you are not saved by saying the words "Jesus, please save me," and meaning it. You are saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

"You claim they must show fruit to prove they are saved." Nope. That was John the Baptist who said that. I haven´t gotten that far yet.

 

[pastorryanhayden]

Christ came to save people "from their sins."  (Mt. 1:21) That is the operative point, and that makes all the difference.  Who wouldn't pray "Jesus, save me from HELL" and mean it?
You can search the New Testament and the vast majority of times Christ is presented it is as a savior from sin, not as a savior from Hell. (Although hell is the obvious byproduct.)
As far as the phillipian jailer goes, there are two things that are often left out of that example:
1. He was a 1st century gentile who had no idea who the Lord Jesus Christ was. Each of those titles are packed with meaning, and Lord in particular would imply submission to God and a turning from sin.
2. When someone really believes on something, they act on it.  At a root level, if you go on living like there is no God after you pray a prayer, you did not believe.
This was the understanding of salvation held by nearly every Christian pastor of note before the mid-1900s.

 

[Vince Massi]

Incidentally, I had never heard the phrase "Hard Believism" before this thread. It's often called "Lordship Salvation." The idea is that if you completely accept Christ, you accept Him as Lord, not just as Savior.

 

[PappaBear]

Incidentally, I had never heard the phrase "Hard Believism" before this thread. It's often called "Lordship Salvation." The idea is that if you completely accept Christ, you accept Him as Lord, not just as Savior.

That is why I prefer to use the term "Easy Prayerism."  About a dozen years ago, I had an extended conversation with a lady on my front porch about this. She was angry that I had taught that salvation is NOT just a prayer.  She insisted that based on Rom. 10:13, EVERY sinner MUST pray "the sinner's prayer." 

So I asked, "What sinner's prayer?" 

She replied, "You know, 'Lord, come into my heart and save me.'  Everyone who prays that is saved, that's how you get saved."

I asked, "A sinner must use those words like a magic formula?  How is that different from saying a Catholic Rosary?  What if a sinner instead prayed, 'Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom'?"

Her response was, "Nope, he isn't saved."  Well, so much for the Thief on the Cross!  It is amazing the number of salvation testimonies given in the NT where the sinner is never recorded as praying.

Salvation is a miracle, a matter of the heart.  It is not something seen right away, but it is an impact on the life described through the scriptures as a new birth.  Repeating mechanical formulas, and then attempting to gauge whether a person "meant it or not" is absolute vanity.  "Believing" or Faith is easy, because it is a gift from God.  It is not a prayer you pray, a formula of words you repeat, or an action you perform.  Its substance is hope and its evidence is invisible.  Those pushing "Easy Believism" are really just wanting you to repeat a prayer, and so calling it easy believism is a misnomer.  The logical reaction is to claim that if you do not believe in easy believism, then you must believe in "Hard Believism."

When, really, the answer is, "No, I just happen to believe that salvation is repentance and faith, not just repeating a prayer."

 

[pastorryanhayden]

Incidentally, I had never heard the phrase "Hard Believism" before this thread. It's often called "Lordship Salvation." The idea is that if you completely accept Christ, you accept Him as Lord, not just as Savior.

That is why I prefer to use the term "Easy Prayerism."  About a dozen years ago, I had an extended conversation with a lady on my front porch about this. She was angry that I had taught that salvation is NOT just a prayer.  She insisted that based on Rom. 10:13, EVERY sinner MUST pray "the sinner's prayer." 

So I asked, "What sinner's prayer?" 

She replied, "You know, 'Lord, come into my heart and save me.'  Everyone who prays that is saved, that's how you get saved."

I asked, "A sinner must use those words like a magic formula?  How is that different from saying a Catholic Rosary?  What if a sinner instead prayed, 'Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom'?"

Her response was, "Nope, he isn't saved."  Well, so much for the Thief on the Cross!  It is amazing the number of salvation testimonies given in the NT where the sinner is never recorded as praying.

Salvation is a miracle, a matter of the heart.  It is not something seen right away, but it is an impact on the life described through the scriptures as a new birth.  Repeating mechanical formulas, and then attempting to gauge whether a person "meant it or not" is absolute vanity.  "Believing" or Faith is easy, because it is a gift from God.  It is not a prayer you pray, a formula of words you repeat, or an action you perform.  Its substance is hope and its evidence is invisible.  Those pushing "Easy Believism" are really just wanting you to repeat a prayer, and so calling it easy believism is a misnomer.  The logical reaction is to claim that if you do not believe in easy believism, then you must believe in "Hard Believism."

When, really, the answer is, "No, I just happen to believe that salvation is repentance and faith, not just repeating a prayer."

Amen!

 

[patriotic]

I was saved as a child sitting in the middle of the front seat of our family car next to my mother as we looked up into a winter's clear night's sky full of stars, waiting for my dad who had gone inside a building to do some business.

I believe that very moment was when I was actually saved.  That moment, as my mom and I admired the handiwork of God and the conversation turned to heaven and salvation's being the ONLY way to go there. I understood it then that I needed to be saved to go to heaven.  Being saved included the understanding that sin was something I did and something for which I must be sorry because God can't let sinners (unsaved sinners, that is) into his perfect heaven.

Being a "daddy's girl", I wanted to wait for daddy to pray with me and that we did later at home, but I have no doubt - as an adult looking back - that the moment I was saved was not at my bedside later that evening, but right there in the center of that old station wagon's bench seat. 

However, my child's mind for years thought I wasn't saved until I prayed.  There were even a few years I wondered why my parents didn't "push" for me to pray while in the car before leaving that business.  What would have happened had we been involved in an accident between there and home and I had been killed? 

As I matured, I realized they knew what faith, salvation, repentance were, but the prayer gave something for my child-faith to remember at the time.  I do not remember the exact words I said and have sometimes wondered why some people have been saved "again" as adults because they were so young when they thought they got saved that they "couldn't remember the words they prayed". 

Incidentally, I was saved on the anniversary of my dad's salvation!  We share that "birthday". 

 

[cpizzle]

I do not remember the exact words I said and have sometimes wondered why some people have been saved "again" as adults because they were so young when they thought they got saved that they "couldn't remember the words they prayed". 

Money Quote!

This is why so many Youth Directors, Deacons, HAC students, and even preachers find themselves doubting their salvation as adults and finally getting saved, and of course, re-baptized to great fanfare.  They are worried that they didn't pray correctly, or used the wrong words, or weren't in the perfect mindset at the time they made "confession unto salvation."  Sure, they believe that God has been leading and guiding them for the past 20 years, even calling them into the ministry.  But they don't believe they were true believers? 

Salvation is about belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.  "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."  "He that believeth on him is not condemned."  We emphasize the prayer, and minimize the belief.  I know I am saved...not because of the prayer I repeated as a young child at VBS, but because I know that I am a believer.  How could doubt ever enter into it?

 

[RAIDER]

This is a little off the OP, but yet has a lot to do with the topic. Thought it was a good read.

http://www.biblicalfocus.com/Salvation.html

 

[PappaBear]

This is a little off the OP, but yet has a lot to do with the topic. Thought it was a good read.

http://www.biblicalfocus.com/Salvation.html

Actually, I think it has a lot to do with the topic.  I found this conclusion from your website interesting concerning the discussion thus far on this thread.  Notice what I have underlined.  Good verses and good thoughts in general ... even a nice prayer that includes repentance.  But is he making the same mistake of describing salvation in the terms of only "pray this prayer"?

God is willing and able to save you. Ask God by faith for forgiveness of your sins

Pray this prayer...  Lord Jesus, I am a sinner, and I believe you paid for my sins with your blood, and that you rose from the dead. I repent of my unbelief and place my trust in you and you alone to be my Savior. Amen!

If this is your prayer, Romans 10:13 is God’s answer: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[RAIDER]

This is a little off the OP, but yet has a lot to do with the topic. Thought it was a good read.

http://www.biblicalfocus.com/Salvation.html

Actually, I think it has a lot to do with the topic.  I found this conclusion from your website interesting concerning the discussion thus far on this thread.  Notice what I have underlined.  Good verses and good thoughts in general ... even a nice prayer that includes repentance.  But is he making the same mistake of describing salvation in the terms of only "pray this prayer"?

God is willing and able to save you. Ask God by faith for forgiveness of your sins

Pray this prayer...  Lord Jesus, I am a sinner, and I believe you paid for my sins with your blood, and that you rose from the dead. I repent of my unbelief and place my trust in you and you alone to be my Savior. Amen!

If this is your prayer, Romans 10:13 is God’s answer: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I do feel people may get hung up on "pray this prayer".  On the other hand, a prayer does give a person something tangible on which to look back.

 

[IFB X-Files]

While this is off the OP a little, I was in a Facebook thread discussing this very subject and "learned" today that repentance is a "continual process".  I just continue to shake my head at the ignorance of so many.

 

[RAIDER]

While this is off the OP a little, I was in a Facebook thread discussing this very subject and "learned" today that repentance is a "continual process".  I just continue to shake my head at the ignorance of so many.

Or possibly a "works salvation"? 

 

[IFB X-Files]

While this is off the OP a little, I was in a Facebook thread discussing this very subject and "learned" today that repentance is a "continual process".  I just continue to shake my head at the ignorance of so many.

Or possibly a "works salvation"? 

That's the direction it heads.  There are many confused and MANY who teach/preach this subject incorrectly.  And this DOES point to the OP.

 

[rsc2a]

While this is off the OP a little, I was in a Facebook thread discussing this very subject and "learned" today that repentance is a "continual process".  I just continue to shake my head at the ignorance of so many.

You don't repent any more or you don't sin any more?