Do you still attend church?

[BALAAM]

I just read Bob Gray's blog and in his blog he calls John MacArthur a liberal and CS Lewis a liberal. Now when you have been raised on this kind of pig slop your entire life and come to accept it as true, you will very likely drop out of church if you become disillusioned rather than going to another one. I mean, this ifbx church is the ONLY one and all the others are liberal and don't believe the Bible. Right?

Everyone on this forum may have differences with MacArthur or Lewis but they are definitely not theological liberals. Guys like Gray and his ilk have hijacked baptist fundamentalism. They have changed the words and meanings.

We all know that fundamental baptists are known for waving their kjv bibles over their head and shouting amen when the speaker claims to believe in its inspiration, right? I am just reading a lesson plan from another church for training any prospective leaders. Now they aren't kjv only and yet here is what they say about the Bible. I am going to paraphrase here because it is not in front of me. They say that our belief is that the scriptures have a primary interpretation that is objective. We do not believe that it is right to take the scriptures and make it say what we want it to say. They then go on to explain the secularist view of the bible and dog-gone if that view doesn't sound like most ifbx folks then I don't know what does.

They say that the secularist view of the Bible is that it has no hard and fast meaning but that everything in it is subjective and each passage  can have an unlimited amount of meanings. If this is true, and it is, then the REAL liberals are guys like Gray, Domelle, Hyles, etc. because much of the Bible has no definite and concrete meaning but can be used for whatever they feel "led" to preach.

My reason for writing this is quite simple. I am sure that all of us believe that our answers to all of our questions and problems lie somewhere in Christ and the Bible, right? Then find a place where Christ and the Bible are paramount and where the pastor believes this and practices it. Not one where they just wave a Bible over their heads and talk about how much they believe it and how much better they are than any other group or church.

 

[prophet]

I just read Bob Gray's blog and in his blog he calls John MacArthur a liberal and CS Lewis a liberal. Now when you have been raised on this kind of pig slop your entire life and come to accept it as true, you will very likely drop out of church if you become disillusioned rather than going to another one. I mean, this ifbx church is the ONLY one and all the others are liberal and don't believe the Bible. Right?

Everyone on this forum may have differences with MacArthur or Lewis but they are definitely not theological liberals. Guys like Gray and his ilk have hijacked baptist fundamentalism. They have changed the words and meanings.

We all know that fundamental baptists are known for waving their kjv bibles over their head and shouting amen when the speaker claims to believe in its inspiration, right? I am just reading a lesson plan from another church for training any prospective leaders. Now they aren't kjv only and yet here is what they say about the Bible. I am going to paraphrase here because it is not in front of me. They say that our belief is that the scriptures have a primary interpretation that is objective. We do not believe that it is right to take the scriptures and make it say what we want it to say. They then go on to explain the secularist view of the bible and dog-gone if that view doesn't sound like most ifbx folks then I don't know what does.

They say that the secularist view of the Bible is that it has no hard and fast meaning but that everything in it is subjective and each passage  can have an unlimited amount of meanings. If this is true, and it is, then the REAL liberals are guys like Gray, Domelle, Hyles, etc. because much of the Bible has no definite and concrete meaning but can be used for whatever they feel "led" to preach.

My reason for writing this is quite simple. I am sure that all of us believe that our answers to all of our questions and problems lie somewhere in Christ and the Bible, right? Then find a place where Christ and the Bible are paramount and where the pastor believes this and practices it. Not one where they just wave a Bible over their heads and talk about how much they believe it and how much better they are than any other group or church.

I just start a new one every few years ;Get it outta my system by helping babes and lambs get stablished. It's a lot more fun with people that are hungry to learn the basic Bible doctrines.  They naturally are inclined to want to see their friends and relatives saved. 
Then one steps up to be guide, and off I go to the next spot.

Anishinaabe

 

[ALAYMAN]

...been through that in a marriage too? (Not trying to whack you; just trying to point out the similarities, and thus potential causes/remedies.)

This rhetorical question is loaded with tons of wisdom.  The things that are involved with the committed loving horizontal relationship known as marriage have countless parallels to the vertical relationship of Christ and His church, demonstrated to be true in Ephesians 5:25-33.

 

[PappaBear]

A few thoughts...
1) Notice the frequency of posters talking about their church in exclusive terms.  It is sad that the HAC orbit of churches degenerated into such a disconnected and out of touch shell that they do not fellowship with others beyond their self-perceived superior role.  Remember the LORD's response to Elijah when he claimed to be the only one left.  There are still 7,000 that the old prophet doesn't know about, he ain't alone.  Loneliness will always discourage a person, whether real or only perceived.

2) I made a post not too long ago somewhere that indicated this, but churches go through cycles.  It normally follows this flow:  Vision --> growth --> discipleship --> stability --> isolation --> degeneration --> repentance & revival.  As much as many want, you cannot keep them on the exact same plane forever.  Administrative changes, policy changes, society changes, economic changes ... everything else changing around them affects the church, so it changes.  Rather than ignoring that fact, you should plan for it and use it.  The main problem with churches, like marriage, is that they often reach a point where they take ministry for granted and turn it into drudgery.  The church in one of the last 3 stages before renewal needs to break out of its shell and breathe new air.  The Great Commission is the best answer for this.  What has happened is that new converts have become mature Christians who have made all the decisions they can, witnessed to all the lost friends and family they had, and have shifted into a kind of "cruising speed" in their walk so that nothing really excites them anymore.  The answer is baby Christians who need to be brought through the same stages you went through, dealing with the same issues.

3)  Not only churches, but individual Christians also go through scriptural stages in their walk.  Paul hints of this when speaking about zeal.  Peter indicates we grow in grace and in knowledge.  "When I became a man, I put away childish things" in 1Cor 13 shows how believers mature.  There will occasionally be conflict when the stage you are in individually creates friction with the stage of the church you are in.  For instance, a long established "ifbx'er" church with a lot of standards that everyone already knows and lives by can be a very uncomfortable place if they only win the occasional soul and they are having to work through all these new developments on their own as the "whipping boy" of the rest of the congregation.  Which is part of the reason that advanced churches go through an isolation stage -- nobody wants to join the "perfect" church, when you already know you cannot keep up.

It is unfortunate that more church leaders do not study the principle dynamics of churches and their members so we can minister to them on their level.  When it becomes up to you since you are just another number or no one is equipped to deal with you on a personal basis, then the answer is often find another ministry which is fresh and vital, where there is growth and joy.  The joy of the Lord is your strength!  Beware of being weary in well doing, which results from operating without that source of strength.  Enjoy God!

 

[Timotheus]

I am trying to find a non-CCM, KJV, soul-winning church that does not use tools of manipulation or performance based Christianity.  The church I am seeking is open about their finances and teaches the Bible, rather than ranting about people who don't like my interpretation of the Bible.  Problem is......I don't think such a place exists.

What would you be willing to give up to find Jesus?    We all have different idols.  Music, Bibles, et. can be just a few of the many.

 

[prophet]

After I left my former IFBx church, I literally had to drag myself to a new church. I was burned out and oh, so done with the whole circus.  I found a church that was not teaching works, works, works; a place that did not run people into the ground; a church where the pastor was not the final authority over everything and everyone. Over time I have found there are things I do not agree with, but also that no one tries to skewer me for disagreeing. That was a cool discovery. It was then I had to try to learn to accept their differences too... This pastor really preaches about God's grace - not the warped IFBxer version of it. The first few weeks after leaving LBC, I would tear up listening to sermons - it was like a salve on my wounds.

I will never be in the inner circle of a church again - trust me on that. Not going to be doing multiple ministries and living some crazy church schedule. I have no desire to become good friends with the pastoral staff and families (although my kid is trying to sabotage this effort ;D ).

Be patient with yourself. You have gone through a lot. I do not know what churches are available in your area, but you might find a non-denom, Southern Baptist, Calvary Chapel, or Presby Church to be a better fit for you.

Interesting.

I am trying to find a fundamentalist in doctrine, non-CCM, KJV, soul-winning church that does not use tools of manipulation or performance based Christianity.  The church I am seeking is open about their finances and teaches the Bible, rather than ranting about people who don't like my interpretation of the Bible.  Problem is......I don't think such a place exists.

This is the quest for our generation.  I figured it would be easier to start my own, then find one that I could stomach.
Non CCM : good luck with that.  Look into history, and see that most of the songs published since the Civil War were CCM on their day.  Read the words, and look how many are amillenial.  We die, go to Heaven, There forever singing with the angels, blah blah blah.
Listen to the chick at the music box add her SG back rhythm to the original melody.  You could dance to this in a country/western bar.  Try to get the music leader to lead something over 150 years old.
KJV. Try to find someone who uses only the KJV, who doesn't butcher it.  Try to find someone who doesn't overlay their peer's opinions of what a passage means when they 'teach' it.  Try to find a KJVO that knows that Scrivener's TR isn't the majority text from whence came our AV.
Try to find one that teaches Matthew 23:29 thru 25:46 in context. 
Soul winning: try to find a church that believes in active outreach, but not baby-sitting the community's kids.  Try to find one that still door-knocks, but isn't a  veritable petry dish to grow abusers in.
Try to find one that believes in not having debt.  Not strapping the body down with enough load that fundraising drives are a constant.
When you reach the age, where you no longer have need to be taught, you cannot respect a church where the head blabber thinks that his sole purpose in life is to get the whole congregation right with God each service.
I stuck a fork in the generation before us, little brother, we have to lead.  Start something please.  I am very hopeful in what I am hearing from you.  You are not alone.  We should logically be improving on our inheritance, not walking it backwards. You and I have an advantage over even Bro.Hyles, who had a mess of SBC. theology.
And the Pacific Pacifists aren't gonna rescue us, with their fallen  youth pastors, superiority complex, and inbred ranters.
Keep pressing, you know what God is showing you.  You know It's right.  God is allowing you to see the issue from several differing viewpoints(churches), but it is the same issue.  Biblical Authority.

Anishinaabe

 

[Bravo]

All the music we sing was at one point CCM. And judging music by our culture? We were referred to as the Babarians in the New Testament.

 

[prophet]

All the music we sing was at one point CCM. And judging music by our culture? We were referred to as the Babarians in the New Testament.

Who is we, paleface?

Anishinaabe

 

[Bravo]

All the music we sing was at one point CCM. And judging music by our culture? We were referred to as the Babarians in the New Testament.

Who is we, paleface?

Anishinaabe

Playing the Indian card eh? We all know you are former Europeans that walked across from Russia to Alaska back in the day lol.

 

[AmazedbyGrace]

.
And the Pacific Pacifists aren't gonna rescue us, with their fallen  youth pastors, superiority complex, and inbred ranters.

Exactly who are you referring to in this quote? Just curious.

 

[prophet]

.
And the Pacific Pacifists aren't gonna rescue us, with their fallen  youth pastors, superiority complex, and inbred ranters.

Exactly who are you referring to in this quote? Just curious.

Who might you think?  Did it trigger a "I think he meant ____"?

Anishinaabe