David Cloud Has Coffee With John Wilkerson

[ALAYMAN]

I don't know; the delaying of baptism is probably a reaction to the manic push-to-get-converts-baptized of what you call Hyles hyper-evangelism.

I don't think it is reactionary, but central to their theology. I can understand why people would question some of the assembly-line tactics of baptism of children after giving them a treat and pat on the head. However, from memories of reading their site years ago, and a brief conversation with one of their staffers at Cloud's sponsoring church whilst I was travelling on vacation years ago I think that they consider it akin to "fencing the table", and at the same time is borne of some sort of puritanical desire to make sure that they don't provide soul-damning assurance to what they may view as a potentially questionable false professor.

 

[sword]

With children I think its a good idea to spend some time to be sure they fully understand what they are doing, but with an adult its not that complicated and I see no need to delay.

If you trust Jesus with your salvation, and eternity, then God wants you to make it public through Baptism. In the Bible every example of baptism I believe was the same day. In that time, in history, it was a BIG DEAL to publicly walk away from Judaism to join the new "Christian" religion. Many were disowned from their families and may have lost their jobs. It was a real commitment to your new found beliefs.

Some churches throughout history only Baptized twice a year. It was often in late spring and then in early fall and was a big deal. I prefer soon after salvation, but If a church wants someone to meet with the pastor or take a short class first I'm not going to be a critic. I do think discipleship training is critical to a New Christians growth and it is lacking in so many ministries of all stripes.

 

[prophet]

David Cloud has coffee with John Wilkerson, and the resulting article provides next to no insight into the ministry of John Wilkerson. Like the Hyles camp's (ab)use of Scripture, he's just there to provide a springboard for Cloud to expound at great length on his personal opinions.

Partly Cloudy had to be salivating at a crack at the Hyles Camp. None of his friends are welcome anywhere near it.
He will go back to his Fairhaven Fan base of 50, and crow about his help "restoring fbch" to true Funnydum.

 

[prophet]

I’m not sure…I have no clue…what or how Wilkerson is doing in First Hammond. From my limited perspective I see no value in his association with Cloud.

There is none.
Cloud is a joke among the Fundy Elitists in Hammond.

 

[prophet]

With children I think its a good idea to spend some time to be sure they fully understand what they are doing, but with an adult its not that complicated and I see no need to delay.

If you trust Jesus with your salvation, and eternity, then God wants you to make it public through Baptism. In the Bible every example of baptism I believe was the same day. In that time, in history, it was a BIG DEAL to publicly walk away from Judaism to join the new "Christian" religion. Many were disowned from their families and may have lost their jobs. It was a real commitment to your new found beliefs.

Some churches throughout history only Baptized twice a year. It was often in late spring and then in early fall and was a big deal. I prefer soon after salvation, but If a church wants someone to meet with the pastor or take a short class first I'm not going to be a critic. I do think discipleship training is critical to a New Christians growth and it is lacking in so many ministries of all stripes.

If The Spirit enters them, they will want to be baptized.

 

[sword]

If The Spirit enters them, they will want to be baptized.

Do you have biblical proof of this or just Prophet 1:1 I see no harm in delay if someone is unsure.

Throughout history many churches would Baptize once or twice a year and make it a big event. Don't see any reason this is wrong. We get baptized in obedience of Gods command, but he does not call out a time limit.

I prefer a church be ready and baptize every service, in which they have converts get saved or walk the isle to make their salvation public. That's why I'm an Independent Baptist. Let every church operate as they feel the Lord would have them operate. I give great latitude for other churches to operate as they believe they should.

 

[Baptist Renegade]

Thank you for the clarification on where you stand on the subject. I tend to agree with you. I believe salvation is "easy" to obtain, but, I also believe that the one being saved needs to understand that they are a sinner and need that salvation. Repentance is necessary or there is no salvation! I see so many today running through a "plan of salvation" with people, people who OBVIOUSLY have NO IDEA of what is being explained, and are just wanting the interloper to leave! Only a handful of those converted in door-to-door and street preacher settings truly get saved. Yet, that handful are worth the effort. I'd NEVER try to belittle those ministries. The Lord definitely uses them, and my family is evidence of that. You're correct, the Holy Spirit has to be involved, or the effort is fruitless.

Salvation is easy but GOD is the one who saves! Salvation comes from being supernaturally BORN AGAIN, not because you coerced a "Decision" from somebody!

 

[Baptist Renegade]

I don't think it is reactionary, but central to their theology. I can understand why people would question some of the assembly-line tactics of baptism of children after giving them a treat and pat on the head. However, from memories of reading their site years ago, and a brief conversation with one of their staffers at Cloud's sponsoring church whilst I was travelling on vacation years ago I think that they consider it akin to "fencing the table", and at the same time is borne of some sort of puritanical desire to make sure that they don't provide soul-damning assurance to what they may view as a potentially questionable false professor.

And the fruits of their "Evangelism" tactics are quite evident! Look at the all those who escape the clutches of FBCH/HAC only to discover they never had "Faith" after all, and fall away!

 

[prophet]

Do you have biblical proof of this or just Prophet 1:1 I see no harm in delay if someone is unsure.

Throughout history many churches would Baptize once or twice a year and make it a big event. Don't see any reason this is wrong. We get baptized in obedience of Gods command, but he does not call out a time limit.

I prefer a church be ready and baptize every service, in which they have converts get saved or walk the isle to make their salvation public. That's why I'm an Independent Baptist. Let every church operate as they feel the Lord would have them operate. I give great latitude for other churches to operate as they believe they should.

You read a lot into my statement.
I was only addressing the willingness of the Saint to be baptized.
How long it takes to get to baptism day, is not addressed in Scripture.
We know John's disciples were baptized possibly years after they believed.
The church had a simple inquiry, prior to the baptism.
It's all there, in Acts.

 

[aleshanee]

And the fruits of their "Evangelism" tactics are quite evident! Look at the all those who escape the clutches of FBCH/HAC only to discover they never had "Faith" after all, and fall away

and yet.... there are also some who were saved as children through the work of churches exactly like fbch and hac.... even "led to Christ" as they say - by other children on a church bus.... who did not fall away.... who continued to grow in Christ and still serve in christian ministries even now...

God can work anywhere He wants... and He can work through anybody He wants to work through... . He is not dependent on you, me, or anyone else having this, that, or the other theological assumptions in our heads.... or even the right words in our mouths... in order to cause the message of the gospel to bear fruit...

attacking the evil that comes out of a place is a right thing to do... but a broad brush attack on any churches evangelism efforts might be a hill too far ... .remember what you said yourself about choosing the right hill to die on?.... ..

 

[AverageJoe]

Salvation is easy but GOD is the one who saves! Salvation comes from being supernaturally BORN AGAIN, not because you coerced a "Decision" from somebody!

(in jest) Where the H-E-double hockey sticks did I coerce a "decision" from anyone?
Now, to get to the SALVATION...I think you're stating the obvious here, brother! Nobody's saying that God doesn't save, nor are they saying they're not supernaturally born again. GEESH! (shaking head and laughing....snicker snicker!)

 

[prophet]

And the fruits of their "Evangelism" tactics are quite evident! Look at the all those who escape the clutches of FBCH/HAC only to discover they never had "Faith" after all, and fall.

"do the work of an Evangelist"- God, trying to keep Calvinists busy so they won't just drink craft beer.