David Cloud Has Coffee With John Wilkerson

[illinoisguy]

Interview with John Wilkerson, pastor of First Baptist Church, Hammond, Indiana. Yes, yes, I know, David Cloud is against everybody, and nobody really likes the guy. I am posting this as an informational commentary on the current ministry in Hammond - not intended as an endorsement of everything that David Cloud has ever said, or of everything he says in this article.

[Cornerstone Baptist Church in Chicago, Courtney Lewis, pastor, which is mentioned in this article, is a black independent Baptist church. In May, 2020 the radical lesbian mayor of Chicago, Lori "Defund The Police" Lightfoot, sent the Chicago Police to this church to shut down a church service because of the pandemic, but the church people locked the police out and continued with the service. Later that month, Mayor Lightfoot called for people of Chicago to go out on the streets to protest police brutality -apparently her sending the police to shut down a church service was not considered brutality. Immediately after Lightfoot's remarks, Chicago was ravaged with rioting, looting and arson by "mostly peaceful social justice protesters]."

David Cloud Has Coffee With John Wilkerson (wayoflife.org)

 

[Ransom]

David Cloud has coffee with John Wilkerson, and the resulting article provides next to no insight into the ministry of John Wilkerson. Like the Hyles camp's (ab)use of Scripture, he's just there to provide a springboard for Cloud to expound at great length on his personal opinions.

 

[AverageJoe]

David Cloud has coffee with John Wilkerson, and the resulting article provides next to no insight into the ministry of John Wilkerson. Like the Hyles camp's (ab)use of Scripture, he's just there to provide a springboard for Cloud to expound at great length on his personal opinions.

That's what it seems like to me.

 

[aleshanee]

.
it must have been some really bad coffee.... .... ...all that and not a single mention of where they went for it, or what kind of coffee it was.. ...having worked in coffee shops for many years, that was the only reason i read the thing..... .. ..... i almost feel click-baited.....

 

[illinoisguy]

​

 

[sword]

I think its important for a soul winner to take the time needed for the potential convert to understand what the Bible says and then sincerely desire salvation. Just saying some words without meaning it in your heart, will do nothing.
That being said which of these categories do you fall into.

I. To some "repentance" is turning from your trust in your own works or whatever you believe in to trusting In the finished work that Jesus did on the cross. It's not longer trusting in your own good works and trusting entirely in what he did for us. The thief on the cross had little opportunity to change his life but he did change who he was trusting in for heaven.
Titus 3:5-7.

2. To others it the change in our lives that saves us. We must trust in him but also we must also turn from our sin. We must change our lifestyle to be saved.
Isaiah 64:6
Ephesians 2:8-9

3. To yet others it living a sinless life after we are saved. To them that's the indication we are born again.
Psalm 14:3, KJV
Matthew 5:20

4. To the last group, none of this matters, they believe God has chosen who will get saved and we have little to do with it. Those he has predestinated will get saved and those who were not can not get saved.
Ephesians 1:4-5
John 15:16
Romans 8:29

 

[sword]

Why would John Wilkerson, pastor of First Baptist Church, Hammond, Indiana sit down with David Cloud for an on the record interview. David Cloud has never been a friend to the First Baptist Church or Hyles Anderson college. He has also never been a supporter of the churches pastored by Hyles Anderson graduates. It makes no sense to sit down with him or give him a venue to run you down or twist your words. What was the end goal here for Pastor Wilkerson? What did he hope to accomplish?
I think Cloud has every right to say what he wants, but I don't have to endorse it by meeting him on the record. If you value his opinion let him put his concerns in writing (as he has done publicly scores of times) for Wilkerson to read and consider.

Just wondering what you all think.

 

[AverageJoe]

I think its important for a soul winner to take the time needed for the potential convert to understand what the Bible says and then sincerely desire salvation. Just saying some words without meaning it in your heart, will do nothing.
That being said which of these categories do you fall into.

I. To some "repentance" is turning from your trust in your own works or whatever you believe in to trusting In the finished work that Jesus did on the cross. It's not longer trusting in your own good works and trusting entirely in what he did for us. The thief on the cross had little opportunity to change his life but he did change who he was trusting in for heaven.
Titus 3:5-7.

2. To others it the change in our lives that saves us. We must trust in him but also we must also turn from our sin. We must change our lifestyle to be saved.
Isaiah 64:6
Ephesians 2:8-9

3. To yet others it living a sinless life after we are saved. To them that's the indication we are born again.
Psalm 14:3, KJV
Matthew 5:20

4. To the last group, none of this matters, they believe God has chosen who will get saved and we have little to do with it. Those he has predestinated will get saved and those who were not can not get saved.
Ephesians 1:4-5
John 15:16
Romans 8:29

And which group do you fall into, sword? I have so many friends who teach "lordship" salvation that it drives me crazy. Many won't understand that concept until a later point in time, but they will trust in the Lord and grow. Then again, I know many who ask the Lord to save them and grow slowly. So slowly that many people judge them to the point of saying they're not saved at all. Then, of course, the Calvinists claim they believe that God has chosen people beforehand and allege they have scriptures to back them up, though, most of those Scriptures are manipulated to back their claim. The same goes for those who hold to free will. So, where do you fit in?

 

[sword]

Joe:
To me I think Salvation is "easy believism". I think before the foundation of the world God created a simple plan by which every sinner could be saved (Ephesians 1:4 ,1 John 2:1-2) and it would not be complicated. I believe a person must first realize they are a sinner (Romans 6:23, Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23). This is often the difficult part and requires the help of the Holy Spirit. They must understand, based on the bible there is a penalty for their sin (Romans 6:23). That penalty is both physical death, but also an eternal spiritual death. That penalty is eternity in a place called Hell (Rev 20:14-15 , Matt 10:28 , Mark 9:44). Then they must understand and believe based on the bible that Jesus payed for our sins (1 John2:1-2 , John 3:16 , Heb. 12:2) (note whosoever). The Gospel plan or story is essential in every salvation, this was the purpose of the old testament sacrifices, to tell the story. The Bible says we then trust in him to forgive us of our sins and to come into our hearts (Acts 4:12 , Acts 2:21 , Romans 10:10). The repentance is turning to God and trusting in him and him alone to get you to Heaven. I believe one must be sorry or their sins, but they don't have to give them up to be saved. That is the process of growing as a Christian. Most new converts don't even know what is and is not a sin, that is the purpose of discipleship. I believe you will see a difference in ones life as they grow, but it may take years or even a lifetime to fully mature as a Christian (Matt 7:16-27). Paul said in Romans 7 he still struggled to live the way he should (2 Peter 3:18). The fruits are an indication of salvation not a requirement to be saved.

I do believe soulwinners often rush through the gospel when more time is needed. It may take many months for someone to understand and believe the Gospel or it may only take a few min. depending on the person and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Without the influence of the Holy Spirit on the person your wasting your time.

Typed from my phone while driving.

​

Verses are KJV

​

"

 

[AverageJoe]

Joe:
To me I think Salvation is "easy believism". I think before the foundation of the world God created a simple plan by which every sinner could be saved (Ephesians 1:4 ,1 John 2:1-2) and it would not be complicated. I believe a person must first realize they are a sinner (Romans 6:23, Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23). This is often the difficult part and requires the help of the Holy Spirit. They must understand, based on the bible there is a penalty for their sin (Romans 6:23). That penalty is both physical death, but also an eternal spiritual death. That penalty is eternity in a place called Hell (Rev 20:14-15 , Matt 10:28 , Mark 9:44). Then they must understand and believe based on the bible that Jesus payed for our sins (1 John2:1-2 , John 3:16 , Heb. 12:2) (note whosoever). The Gospel plan or story is essential in every salvation. The Bible says we then trust in him to forgive us of our sins and to come into our hearts (Acts 4:12 , Acts 2:21 , Romans 10:10). The repentance is turning to God and trusting in him and him alone to get you to Heaven. I believe one must be sorry or their sins, but they don't have to give them up to be saved. That is the process of growing as a Christian. Most new converts don't even know what is and is not a sin. I believe you will see a difference in ones life as they grow as a Christian, but it may take years or even a lifetime to fully mature as a Christian (Matt 7:16-27). Paul said in Romans 7 he still struggled to live the way he should (2 Peter 3:18). The fruits are an indication of salvation not a requirement to be saved.

I do believe soulwinners often rush through the gospel when more time is needed. It may take many months for someone to understand and believe the Gospel or it may only take a few min. depending on the person and the leading of the Holy Spirit. Without the influence of the Holy Spirit on the person your wasting your time.

Typed from my phone while driving.

​

Verses are KJV

​

"

Thank you for the clarification on where you stand on the subject. I tend to agree with you. I believe salvation is "easy" to obtain, but, I also believe that the one being saved needs to understand that they are a sinner and need that salvation. Repentance is necessary or there is no salvation! I see so many today running through a "plan of salvation" with people, people who OBVIOUSLY have NO IDEA of what is being explained, and are just wanting the interloper to leave! Only a handful of those converted in door-to-door and street preacher settings truly get saved. Yet, that handful are worth the effort. I'd NEVER try to belittle those ministries. The Lord definitely uses them, and my family is evidence of that. You're correct, the Holy Spirit has to be involved, or the effort is fruitless.

 

[aleshanee]

​

.
... thou hast spoken truth..... in my world coffee is "el agua de la vida"....
.. ....... the water of life.. . . all else is frills and dressing.....

 

[AverageJoe]

.
... thou hast spoken truth..... in my world coffee is "el agua de la vida"....
.. ....... the water of life.. . . all else is frills and dressing.....

Same here! We have to have our coffee every morning! In fact, Mr. Coffee is one of our best friends. I used to include him in my daily column.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I’m not sure…I have no clue…what or how Wilkerson is doing in First Hammond. From my limited perspective I see no value in his association with Cloud.

 

[AverageJoe]

I’m not sure…I have no clue…what or how Wilkerson is doing in First Hammond. From my limited perspective I see no value in his association with Cloud.

From what I've been told by some who attend FBCH, Wilkerson is doing quite well, and the tenor of the church has changed a great deal. I've not been to FBCH in many years and have no way outside of their testaments to these changes whether they are real or not.

 

[Walt]

Why would John Wilkerson, pastor of First Baptist Church, Hammond, Indiana sit down with David Cloud for an on the record interview. David Cloud has never been a friend to the First Baptist Church or Hyles Anderson college. He has also never been a supporter of the churches pastored by Hyles Anderson Graduates. It make no sense to sit down with him or give him a venue to run you down or twist your words. What was the end goal here for Pastor Wilkerson? What did he hope to accomplish?
I think Cloud has every right to say what he wants, but I don't have to endorse it by meeting him on the record. If you value his opinion let him put his concerns in writing (as he has done publicly scores of times) for Wilkerson to read and consider.

Just wondering what you all think.

I don't know (I don't move in these circles), but I think many people have written to David Cloud to say that FBCH is not what it was, and that John Wilkerson had made real changes.
Thus, David Cloud wanted to find out for himself, and thus asked for the meeting... it may have been brokered by the other pastor at the meeting.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I think that the sin-sniffing borderline Lordshipper ways of Cloud are typical of people who like to fit God into nice, neat theologically contrived boxes. His delaying of baptism (expressed with antipathy to Hyles hyper-evangelism and baptism via the linked OP article) is nigh sinful if you ask me, and kind of ironic given that he wants the new believer to show instant obedience and fruit. When a convert to Christ first expresses their faith what is the first thing that they ought to do in discipleship towrds Him? Baptism is the answer of course. So why wouldn't the first effort of those doing the discipling be to ask the newly birthed Christ-follower if they would like to begin their journey with the ordinance that most quickly identifies them with Him?

 

[AverageJoe]

I think that the sin-sniffing borderline Lordshipper ways of Cloud are typical of people who like to fit God into nice, neat theologically contrived boxes. His delaying of baptism (expressed with antipathy to Hyles hyper-evangelism and baptism via the linked OP article) is nigh sinful if you ask me, and kind of ironic given that he wants the new believer to show instant obedience and fruit. When a convert to Christ first expresses their faith what is the first thing that they ought to do in discipleship towrds Him? Baptism is the answer of course. So why wouldn't the first effort of those doing the discipling be to ask the newly birthed Christ-follower if they would like to begin their journey with the ordinance that most quickly identifies them with Him?

Correct...when one plants a tree, shrub, flower, or vegetable, the growth isn't immediate, and fruit isn't obtained instantly either! Some "theologians" who hold to "Lordship salvation" deserve much of the consternation they receive, as they seem to fit the mode that Christ gave to the lawyers...laying burdens too heavy upon people, blocking their growth and their will to continue in Christ to maturity.

 

[AntiMegaChurch]

Interview with John Wilkerson, pastor of First Baptist Church, Hammond, Indiana. Yes, yes, I know, David Cloud is against everybody, and nobody really likes the guy. I am posting this as an informational commentary on the current ministry in Hammond - not intended as an endorsement of everything that David Cloud has ever said, or of everything he says in this article.

[Cornerstone Baptist Church in Chicago, Courtney Lewis, pastor, which is mentioned in this article, is a black independent Baptist church. In May, 2020 the radical lesbian mayor of Chicago, Lori "Defund The Police" Lightfoot, sent the Chicago Police to this church to shut down a church service because of the pandemic, but the church people locked the police out and continued with the service. Later that month, Mayor Lightfoot called for people of Chicago to go out on the streets to protest police brutality -apparently her sending the police to shut down a church service was not considered brutality. Immediately after Lightfoot's remarks, Chicago was ravaged with rioting, looting and arson by "mostly peaceful social justice protesters]."

David Cloud Has Coffee With John Wilkerson (wayoflife.org)

Elephant Room Round 4 perhaps?

 

[Walt]

I think that the sin-sniffing borderline Lordshipper ways of Cloud are typical of people who like to fit God into nice, neat theologically contrived boxes. His delaying of baptism (expressed with antipathy to Hyles hyper-evangelism and baptism via the linked OP article) is nigh sinful if you ask me, and kind of ironic given that he wants the new believer to show instant obedience and fruit. When a convert to Christ first expresses their faith what is the first thing that they ought to do in discipleship towrds Him? Baptism is the answer of course. So why wouldn't the first effort of those doing the discipling be to ask the newly birthed Christ-follower if they would like to begin their journey with the ordinance that most quickly identifies them with Him?

I don't know; the delaying of baptism is probably a reaction to the manic push-to-get-converts-baptized of what you call Hyles hyper-evangelism. Testimonies from people in this were that they didn't really know what they were doing and no one took time to ensure that they understood. I think it is a good thing to wait a bit to see if a new life has begun in a convert.
I'm thankful that I was baptized in a church that wasn't number-hungry.... they taught and preached about baptism, but they waited until I asked to be baptized, and then they took time to make sure I was saved and knew what I was doing.

 

[Walt]

Correct...when one plants a tree, shrub, flower, or vegetable, the growth isn't immediate, and fruit isn't obtained instantly either! Some "theologians" who hold to "Lordship salvation" deserve much of the consternation they receive, as they seem to fit the mode that Christ gave to the lawyers...laying burdens too heavy upon people, blocking their growth and their will to continue in Christ to maturity.

Very true about fruit - it takes time... but there is a pretty quick change.