Country of Gergesenes...Gadarenes: Where did the pigs run?

Steven Avery said:
Hi,

rsc2a said:
Which AV?
All AVs are exceedingly pure, all are correct on Gergesenes and Gadarenes.  And I consider the Pure Cambridge Edition to be like a Received Text of AV editions.


There are differences even in the Authorized Version. You have limited it down to the Cambridge Edition(s). Which one of those is the correct one? And why not the Oxford Editions since they are likewise based on the AV?

[quote author=Steven Avery]When you read modern versions, does it concern you that the swine are running a marathon from a city about 35 miles from the Sea of Galilee ?  Do you understand that this is only a function of the Hortian errors in attempting to change the Bible, and that the historic Bibles do not have this difficulty?[/quote]

Frankly it doesn't concern me at all. But then, I haven't set up a Bible as my functional God.
 
admin said:
Let's move the "pure" discussion to another thread and continue with the swine issue here.

Pig!
 
Steven Avery said:
Hi Folks,

Timotheos, you are squarely in the Warfieldian tradition, which allows that geographical error in the Bible text could simply be a lack of knowledge or understanding of the authors.  Note that this is not traditional Bible infallibility and inerrancy, and became almost a necessity when faced with the errors of the modern versions. The idea of Markan and Lukan geographical error fits well the modern version mentality.

And I referenced this above as the Warfieldian idea that:

and maybe they only wrote to their knowledge and understanding

And above it is one form of approach 3g.:

acknowledge the error, these things happen


Although this is not the scribal error form, it is the author ignorance form of scripture error.

Since you obviously do not understand what I wrote about the idea of two distinct events, and are not really concerned with issues like accurate geography and consistent chronology and a careful study of the sections,  I'll pass over that part of your post. 

Especially since I made it clear that I have no aversion to a pericoping idea, in the manner of John Lightfoot, as long as you are aware of the swine marathon considerations in the modern versions when discussing what is the pure Bible text in the three gospel accounts.

Incidentally, I would agree that the idea of "distinct accounts" is overdone occasionally by writers.  My view is that this particular synoptic group of accounts is rather special and unique in that regard, with very clear markers of independence that really at least requires a more careful review.

Your in Jesus,
Steven
Long time not talkey, SA.  What makes you think I'm not interested (obviously??? really?) in your view or "accurate geography" and "careful study."  I guess you are the only genuine thinker around here, or at least you and anyone who agrees with you.  So brash an assumption.  You know what they say when you assume.
 
Hi,

rsc2a said:
it doesn't concern me at all.

This is representative of the modern version view.  For many, it is only the "message" digested, the actual words of God are not a concern.

Timotheos said:
What makes you think I'm not interested (obviously??? really?) in your view or "accurate geography" and "careful study." 

Hi Timotheos.  Just the sense I got from your response, similar to the one above, where the modern version swine marathon error is not even addressed.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven
 
Hi,

Continuing from my reply #5, the last post really on the topic, I want to mention another article that addresses the questions raised by FSSL.

The Demoniacs of Gadara - Gordon Franz
http://www.ldolphin.org/gadara.html

Gordon Franz defends the pure Bible reading, and combines the two accounts in the Gadarene region.  In so doing, and in giving a good summary of some of the scholarship, it looks like any remaining questions of FSSL about geography are answered, and even the tombs question, which was not raised, is addressed.

This should be enough to help jettison the unnecessary faux apologetics defense of the modern version swine marathon corruption.  While still leaving open the question of one account (at either location) or two events at two somewhat distant locations.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery


 
rsc2a said:
[quote author=Steven Avery]Anyone want to return to the issue of the pure Bible...

Sure...as soon as you can tell me which Bible that is.
[/quote]

Well, rs2ca, go to it.  If you can post with this guy and try and get him to admit when his positions are illogical and invalid, I will give you a big freakin Gold Star, this Big.


goldstar.jpg
 
Hi,

Then we have the most recent scholarly analysis of the Gergesenes - Gadarenes - Gerasenes question.  By Peter John Williams, who initiated the Evangelical Textual Criticism blog in 2005.  A talk given at the Society of Biblical Literature in 2011, not yet written up for publication.

From the handout at SBL, Peter J. Williams concludes (after looking at various considerations like the Greek uncials and cursives, geography, scribal habits, lectio difficilior, the Hortian approach seconded by Sanday and today's CT apparatus uncertainty, the versional evidence, Origen and more):

=======================

The Gadarene, Gerasene, and Gergesene Variants Reconsidered

...if we suppose that the original readings were Gergesenes for Matthew and Gadarenes for Mark and Luke we explain more of the data far more simply. We explain the majority readings, and the minority ones too. Gerasenes arises as the less familiar Gergesenes is replaced by a more familiar term. The scribe may not even have been aware that this happened. Gadarenes spreads from two gospels (Mark and Luke) into some witnesses of Matthew, including some we now regard as important.

=======================


Simply another confirmation of the pure Bible reading. And the fact that the faux apologetics for the modern version blunder of Gerasenes is simply unnecessary .... and wrong.

Psalm 119:140
Thy word is very pure:
therefore thy servant loveth it.


Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
Hi,

FSSL said:
Do you have a conclusion for your position now?

As I make clear above,  I have a preference for the two events concept, and allow that as simply an interpretation of scripture.  Above, I mentioned John Lightfoot as an example of respectably working with the one event concept.

Either way, one event or two, I see that Peter J. Williams is very helpful in looking at the textual issues. And the key issue is the blunder of Gerasa and the faux apologetics for the swine marathon. Ultra-strained apologetics, all for a Hortian modern version corruption that is not scripture.  Overall, an embarrassment, decrepit apologetics for a hard error that is not the word of God!  This is unchanged whether one event or two.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven
 
I am interested in seeing the link where you got William's quote.
 
Hi,

FSSL said:
I am interested in seeing the link where you got William's quote.

Peter Williams courteously sent me the notes from the talk by email, in a .doc attachment.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
Hi,

admin said:
Do you have quotes where people actually believe that the swine ran 35 miles from Jerash?
The swine marathon is what the ultra-minority corruption actually reads, and it leads to all sorts of strange attempts to come up with "explanations". 

First, on the Greek mss, here is Peter J. Williams discussing Mark 5:1:


... Text und Textwert for Mark 5:1: γαδαρηνων (Gadarenes) has a massive numerical preponderance with the support of 1562 Greek manuscripts. Where might this numerical preponderance come from? .... The 66 manuscripts with γεργεσηνων (Gergesenes) in Mark are, I believe, readily explained by assimilation to the majority reading in Matthew. So the view that Gerasenes is prior in Mark struggles to explain the numerical preponderance of γαδαρηνων  in manuscripts of Mark.


Peter J. Williams points out that the idea of an Origen origin for Gergesenes is essentially untenable based on the documentary evidences, including this Greek preponderance.

The faux apologetics arises to try to make excuses for the ultra-minority corruption.  Glenn Miller managed to pack in about seven distinct faux apologetics attempts in one short article.  Simply because he is stuck defending modern version corruptions, simply because he does not understand the strength of the pure Bible reading.  This is likely a record for faux apologetic attempts on one variant.

Next, I would like to give a bit more about the Midrash Zuta, from Song of Songs, which is also referenced by Peter J. Williams.

============

Returning to the question of scholarship that works with the swine marathon, any scholarship that is simply a straight scholarship approach, stuck with the modern version corruption, will acknowledge the problem, and essentially try to blame the NT authors for an error (rather than say that the swine actually ran 35 miles). 

A good example is:

A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to Saint Matthew: Commentary on Matthew 8-18 (1991)
William David Davies, Dale C. Allison, Jr.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xj8dHdRZ7msC&pg=PA79

"most modern scholars have concluded that Mark originally wrote (Gerasenes), Matthew (Gadarenes), (see Metzger, p. 23-4, 84,145). If in this they are correct, then we are dealing with two regions—that of the Gadarenes (Matthew) and that of the Gerasenes (Mark, Luke). Gadara ( = Umm Qeis), the capital of a toparchy, was about six miles south-east of the Sea of Galilee, Gerasa (=Jerash, a city of Peraea) about thirty-three miles. Both cities, which were members of the Decapolis, are troublesome because the texts very strongly imply a location near water."


Gadarenes, however, is not at all troublesome (note the 1991 date, before the port archaeological discovery, although that was understood by some earlier). Garasenes, the swine marathon, is very troublesome.

============

Thus standard scholarship would be to see simply an error, contradiction, ironically including the common abuse of lectio difficilior to argue for error (Peter J. Williams discusses this aspect as well).

The Encounter of Jesus with the Gerasene Demoniac:
Jostein Ã…dna
http://books.google.com/books?id=RzlMbmGMJhkC&pg=PA294

—"a man from Gerasa," seemingly taking for granted that the man Jesus encountered was related to the famous city of Gerasa, situated east of Jordan near the river Jabbok, about 55 km south east of the Sea of Galilee, and belonging to the Decapolis (cf. Mark  5:20).... Actually, the acute geographical problem of the reference to "the region of the Gerasenes" in a story presupposing the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee as its scene strengthens this reading considerably as lectio difficilior among the extant variants.... The demonstration that "Gerasenes" is original in our story reveals a geographical contradiction within it between the inland localisation of Gerasa without any lake in its surrounding region and the presupposed "sea" (θάλασσα) at the site of the event.  (p. 294-296)

============

Here is how this is handled in a more evangelical commentary.

Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (2008)
David L. Turner
http://books.google.com/books?id=8z9LSdKLUl4C&pg=PA250

Assuming the historicity of the pericope, γεργεσηνων (Gerasenes) is least likely, since Gerasa (modern Jerash). a city of the Decapolis, was more than thirty miles southeast of the Sea of Galilee ...

Inversely, the acceptance of Gerasenes means the non-historicity of the account when you are stuck with the modern version corruption.

============

Similarly, Robert H. Gundry is an example of a writer who, well informed on the scholarship and initially stuck with the modern version error, wanted to avoid the faux apologetics.

"...Gerasa lies about thirty miles southeast of the nearest point on the southeastern shore of the Sea of Galilee ... i.e. too far away for the city folks' arrival at lakeside an apparently very short while after Jesus performed the exorcism"

Mark: A Commentary On His Apology For The Cross, Chapters 1 - 8
Robert H. Gundry
http://books.google.com/books?id=6h-jdYBcyjIC&pg=PA256


So Gundry ended up using Gergesenes as his text in his Mark commentary, "hesitantly".

============

Clearly, if Turner or Gundry had accepted the pure Bible, their decision would have been much simply, they would not have to go against any Hortian textual sludge.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
Hi,

admin said:
If we cannot see what Williams wrote
I'll ask Peter J. Williams if the section can be made available in full. There is nothing particularly complex in what he wrote, simply a sensible analysis that uses a lot of the information already available, and adds some special emphasis and a healthy dollup of common sense.

admin said:
The matter is not as grave
Grave, shmave. It is simply a humorous example of the modern version absurdity, faux apologetics fabricated to try to mask a blatant Hortian corruption.  There are dozens of similar hard errors throughout the Alexandrian manuscripts and the Critical Text.

admin said:
the issue is clearly handled by the footnotes in our Bibles, commentaries and encyclopedias.

Only by giving the faux apologetics for the corruption, which the liberals and skeptics quite understandably and often humorously rip to shreds.

admin said:
The KJV, itself, has an apparent contradiction and you are the only one on this forum that seems troubled by the location (eg. "Is it one or two events?")
As I see it, there is not even an "apparent contradiction". Simply an interpretative question.

Notice how not one of the modern version anti-TR-AV purity posters is willing to jettison the corruption, they are so attached to their TR-AV animus. 

And I wonder if any informed contras, with all the info now available, would give their current probability guesstimate for the autographic authenticity of the TR and CT readings, which the NA-27 apparatus marked as a C in their ABCD system.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
Hi,

Steven Avery said:
Next, I would like to give a bit more about the Midrash Zuta, from Song of Songs, which is also referenced by Peter J. Williams.

Peter J. Williams notes:


"What we can say is that, at the least, Origen did not invent the location. The small Midrash on Song of Songs, known as Midrash Zuta refers to a Gergeshta on the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee."


This has been mentioned en passant a couple of times before, including in the FFF discussion.  And I wanted to confirm the reference to the "eastern shore ...".

An Italian web-site, translated through google, is of some assistance.

Gherghesa, Gerasa o Gadara?
Dove è avvenuto il miracolo di Gesù?
http://www.messiev.altervista.org/Gherghesa.html

Rabbi Nehemiah said, "When the Holy One, blessed be He, to Israel shows the graves of Gog and Magog, the feet of the Shechinah will be on the Mount of Olives and the tombs of Gog and Magog will be open from the south of Kidron Valley up to Gergeshta on the eastern side of Lake Tiberias. " And he came until he came [niknesah, read instead, "Naosa," that is, Nysa Scitiopoli] "(Song of Solomon 1:4 Zuta).

According to this midrash, the tombs of Gog and Magog will extend from Jerusalem to Gergeshta (= Gherghesa), which is described to be on the eastern side of the Sea of Galilee. So, we know it really existed a place called Gherghesa to the east of the lake. Although its location was still unknown at the time of Origen, Gherghesa was apparently desolate: therefore, Origen called it "old city."

Interestingly, the first reference to this Midrash in the context of Gergesenes in the New Testament looks to be as recent as 1996, in papers by Mendel Nun and Ze'ev Safrai.

The textual faux apologetics for the modern versions was largely based on the mistaken idea that Origen had actually invented and emended Gergesenes into the manuscript line.  This Metzger-style error (I plan to check where it began) is behind the ultra-minority reading, which at heart is simply the normal Vaticanus primacy approach, with excuses made post-facto.

Peter J. Williams mentions another aspect of this:

As for the suggestion that Origen brought the reading ‘Gergesenes’ into existence, I struggle with the speed with which this conjecture would need to have spread. The circulation of Origen’s commentary on John was probably not huge.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven

 
Hi,

Steven Avery said:
And I wonder if any informed contras, with all the info now available, would give their current probability guesstimate for the autographic authenticity of the TR and CT readings, which the NA-27 apparatus marked as a C in their ABCD system.

If you were following the modern versions in the 1960s, in versions using UBS-1 and UBS-2, you would be even more perplexed in the modern version error.  Remember, today these verses have the Gerasenes swine marathon.

Mark 5:1 
And they came over unto the other side of the sea,
into the country of the Gadarenes.

Luke 8:26 
And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes,
which is over against Galilee.

Luke 8:37
Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes
round about besought him to depart from them;
for they were taken with great fear:
and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.


You can see this perplexity in the:

New English Bible,
http://www.katapi.org.uk/NEB/master.html?http://www.katapi.org.uk/NEB/IntroContents.php


where the Mark verse has:

So they came to the other side of the lake, into the country of the Gerasenes.

And the Luke verses have:

26 So they landed in the country of the Gergesenes, which is opposite Galilee.
37  Then the whole population of the Gergesene district asked him to go ...


The reason for this particular extra level of modern version confusion is that UBS-1 and UBS-2 had made the textual distinction, as discussed by Jostein Adna:

The Encounter of Jesus with the Gerasene Demoniac (1999)
Jostein Ã…dna
http://books.google.com/books?id=RzlMbmGMJhkC&pg=PA294

In the first two editions of the Greek New Testament (1966 and 1968) the variant
(Gergesenes) was given preference, but this has been changed in the third and fourth editions to (Gerasenes).

Another symptom of the uncertainties of the probability text, today's maybe, probably Bible version text may be tomorrow's abominable tampering of man, and vica versa.

====================

(And there was another problem in the 1906 Ferrar Fenton translation of the Westcott-Hort text, the New Testament in Modern English, so far I have not figured out whether this had a GNT root cause or was a Fenton Ferrar problem.)

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
Hi,

Steven Avery said:
Thus standard scholarship would be to see simply an error, contradiction, ironically including the common abuse of lectio difficilior to argue for error (Peter J. Williams discusses this aspect as well).

Here is the section from Peter J. Williams on lectio difficilior (remember, these are simply his notes used and distributed for the presentation .. I remove some notes about the number of minutes to be spent speaking on the section.)


Lectio Difficilior
A number of commentators appeal to the maxim of lectio difficilior to support ‘Gerasenes’ as the earliest text in Mark. It is said to be a difficult reading because Gerasa is so obviously far from the lake. Matthew, with better geographical knowledge, is alleged to have substituted Gadara, which makes the problem less but not solved. Finally someone round Origen’s time came up with the perfect solution and found or posited an appropriately named place on the lake itself.

However, the appeal to lectio difficilior is not self-evident but raises the question ‘more difficult for whom?’ This really depends on the level of geographical knowledge you suppose a tradent has. One scribe might have heard of Gadara or Gerasa, cities of the Decapolis, but not of a small village on the lake and have no clue where any of them were. In that case he or she might simply replace a less well known name with a better known one. On the other hand, a scribe knowing where Gerasa was (assuming there is not also a Gerasa by the lake) would naturally find it a difficult reading. So the argument from difficulty can work in more than one way depending on the knowledge of the scribe and is, in itself, inconclusive. Presumably only a minority of all Christian scribes active in the second to fourth centuries knew anything of any of these place names outside of the texts they were copying.


Clearly, you can be sure that if the Metzger crew wanted to defend the Gergesenes reading using lectio difficilior, they would do so with gusto, talking about how difficult is the unknown Gergesenes.

Ze'ev Safrai wrote about this in the context of a "well-documented philological tendency".

Gergesa, Gerasa, or Gadara? Where Did Jesus' Miracle Occur?
[Mt. 8:28-34; Mk. 5:1-20; Lk. 8:26-39] -
Jerusalem Perspective No. 51 (Apr.-Jun. 1996):
Safrai, Ze'ev

Incidentally, here we have an illustration of a well-documented philological tendency: in the copying of ancient texts, an unknown name will almost always be "corrected" to a known name. In the case of Gergesenes-Gerasenes-Gadarenes, therefore, we should prefer the less known place-name (Gergesa) over those that are better known (Gerasa and Gadara).


So the Metzger and friends argumentation here of lectio difficilior against Gergesenes in Matthew is another off-shoot of the win-win and lose-lose argumentation techniques of the modern version theorists.  Where they can argue either side of an issue, depending on ... Vaticanus.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery


 
Steven Avery said:
I'll ask Peter J. Williams if the section can be made available in full. There is nothing particularly complex in what he wrote, simply a sensible analysis that uses a lot of the information already available, and adds some special emphasis and a healthy dollup of common sense.

If is is not a bother to him. I can get the final journal article through SBL. I am interested in his theory of how this developed.

[quote author=Steven Avery]Grave, shmave. It is simply a humorous example of the modern version absurdity, faux apologetics fabricated to try to mask a blatant Hortian corruption.  There are dozens of similar hard errors throughout the Alexandrian manuscripts and the Critical Text.[/quote]

There are way too many unknowns to settle on this as an error. Granted, it is difficult. The committee on the NA had difficulty. But to accept this as an error, it would be a drastic misspelling. While Williams is projecting an interesting, and plausible theory, from the snippets you have posted, he is still reserved.

It was not until 1970 that we learned that Kursi was the location. I, for one, am not going to assume that "the Gerasene territory" is an illegitimate way to describe that locale. The way names and territories are identified in the US, alone, should give anyone pause for dogmatically rejecting that description. The way I look at this is that the city names are so close in spelling that making a hard case against one means that I have exhausted the way Matthew, Mark and Luke referred to this region.

If you are going to discuss the textual support, in favor of your view, let it be known that you are being quite selective. Admittedly, the rating of this reading in Like 8:26 has a "C" rating. The committee made a difficult choice and noted it as such.

This is more than a simple Lectio Difficilior (choose the harder reading). If you read Metzger's, Textual Commentary on Luke, The reason it still appears in the UBS is that has very early, widespread papyrii, uncial and versional support. History is based on documentation. There is documentation. We are left to make the best assumptions possible.

The modern-versionist is alright with this kind of difficulty. I look at it this way, "It may or may not be a corruption. There is too much unknown to make a dogmatic issue over it." This approach does not make us absurd or fabricators.

My OP was clear. The KJV uses different terms in parallel passages that match the modern versions for this event. My difficulty is not with the KJV, but with the dogmatic KJVO.

I am doing my part to have a decent discussion on this without the hubris and excitable language. I know that we are going to get more of the "textus corruptus, Hortian, faux apologetics and fabrication" speak from you, that would be unfortunate. It really does not help prove your point. In fact, it really hurts it.
 
Hi,

Anyway, I don't think there is yet a final SBL article, it looks like he is hoping to do a Journal article later.  I asked Peter Williams if the sheets handed out can be made available on a forum and should know shortly.

=================

Based on experience, I have zero expectation that you would actually understand the absurdity of seven or more conflicting and absurdly weak faux apologetic attempts all built on yet another ultra-minority Vaticanus-primacy Hortian corruption.  Worse, one that is yet another hard error.  Why fabricate apologetics for textual slips that were never part of the historic pure Bible?

And I have zero expectation that you would ever receive any Received Text variant, anywhere in the Bible, over a Critical Text corruption, with the TR reading as the definite, pure word of God.

So your saying you are not convinced is like saying the sun is likely to rise in the AM.

too many unknowns...., it is difficult. .... not going to assume that "the Gerasene territory" is an illegitimate way to describe that locale... Like 8:26 has a "C" rating. .... a difficult choice ......alright with this kind of difficulty... "It may or may not be a corruption. There is too much unknown ...." 


I'm not even sure you would ever be 100% definite about a CT reading.

=================

And why don't you give us your latest probability calculation, so the readers have an idea of how you actually see the Bible text variant?  Taking into consideration all the information, old and new, including the midrash, and your very best math-probability textual criticism make-your- own-version analysis skills.

Would you now say that Gerasenes is 70% likely the pure word of God, 30% likely the abominable tampering of man?  Or maybe the reverse, 30% likely the pure word of God. 

Why not be straight arrow, and tell us your current calcs?

=================

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
Looking forward to his initial write-up.

Garasenes, noted by men with superior technical skills than me, have given this a "C" rating, better than the other possibilities. They did not give me a percentage.

As far as the UBS being the pure word of God, it is 100% pure. The KJV is 100% pure. The TR is 100% pure. We can discuss that on another thread if you are up to it.
 
Hi,

FSSL said:
As far as the UBS being the pure word of God, it is 100% pure. The KJV is 100% pure. The TR is 100% pure.

This type of self-contradiction is simply par for the cornfusenik course.  Really, how can there be anything to discuss when logic, sense and math are all tossed out the window.

Yours in Jesus,
Steven Avery
 
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