Can an infant be a Christian?

[biscuit1953]

You should note that "my children" in the passage you cited refers only to Israelite children.

So are you saying that all children are born saved, or are you saying all children are born free of sin?

The Roman Catholic Church teaches unbaptized infants go to Limbo, an afterlife condition separate from Hell, because baptism is necessary for salvation and frees the recipient from original sin. The fact you have the audicity to tell us that only the children in the Old Testament who were blood descendants of Abraham were saved is no different than what the Catholic church espouses. God claimed the children of the wicked parents who sacrificed their children to Molech as His own. What you advocate is nothing but an extreme teaching that those who have no knowledge of right and wrong are condemned unless they are of the right racial heritage. Your branch of Covenant Theology is no different than Catholic doctrine.

Mat 19:13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people,
Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

 

[Ekklesian]

The fact you have the audicity to tell us that only the children in the Old Testament who were blood descendants of Abraham were saved

Anyone with a fifth-grade reading comprehension level knows I said no such thing. I was merely correcting the violence you were doing to the prophecy.

Mat 19:13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people,
Mat 19:14 but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

"To such," not "to them." In other words, the kingdom of heaven belongs to those who become as little children.

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:3

 

[biscuit1953]

Anyone with a fifth-grade reading comprehension level knows I said no such thing. I was merely correcting the violence you were doing to the prophecy. Anyone with a fifth-grade reading comprehension level knows that if the children did not belong to they Lord went to hell. What children who have no knowledge of right or wrong are saved? Those who you believe are offspring to Jews or Christian parents?

"To such," not "to them." In other words, the kingdom of heaven belongs to those who become as little children.
Exactly. That is why Jesus said in Mathew 19:14, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. - Matthew 18:3

 

[Ekklesian]

Has God ever judged a Christian and taken them home to be with, say, due to chastisement?

Some who abused the Lord's Supper have been judged with death, yes.

You both seem to be saying there are two ways to Heaven, one way is faith in Christ, the other is to die in infancy.

Let's just be clear, no one enters but by grace through faith. I'm sorry about the difficulty that poses to one's wishful thinking in the case of infants. I'm not unaffected by that myself, but we must remain true to the Scriptures.

So one of my questions to biscuit, which remains unanswered is, why do you automatically think that an exercise of faith is impossible for an infant?

 

[biscuit1953]

Some who abused the Lord's Supper have been judged with death, yes.

You both seem to be saying there are two ways to Heaven, one way is faith in Christ, the other is to die in infancy.

Let's just be clear, no one enters but by grace through faith. I'm sorry about the difficulty that poses to one's wishful thinking in the case of infants. I'm not unaffected by that myself, but we must remain true to the Scriptures.

So one of my questions to biscuit, which remains unanswered, why do you automatically think that an exercise of faith is impossible for an infant?

I don't want this to get personal but you are an idiot.

 

[Ekklesian]

@biscuit1953, I won't respond to statements that you lazily leave inside the quote window or panel or whatever the heck it's called.

 

[Ekklesian]

I don't want this to get personal but your are an idiot.

I love how you avoided getting personal there. You have a fierce intellect.

 

[biscuit1953]

I love how you avoided getting personal there. You have a fierce intellect.

You forced me into getting personal. You should apologize. Anyone who thinks an infant can exercise faith or know right from wrong is an idiot.

 

[AverageJoe]

The Ark was a type and shadow of a spiritual reality. None of them infants were in it. Pretty dang real.

A type, yes, but also a physical reality. Of course, saving their lives also meant saving their souls. It would seem that there were no children, so I guess that blows your skirt up, Marilyn.

 

[biscuit1953]

I was going to post a painting of infants burning in hell but was too disgusted by it.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Some who abused the Lord's Supper have been judged with death, yes.

You both seem to be saying there are two ways to Heaven, one way is faith in Christ, the other is to die in infancy.

Let's just be clear, no one enters but by grace through faith. I'm sorry about the difficulty that poses to one's wishful thinking in the case of infants. I'm not unaffected by that myself, but we must remain true to the Scriptures.

So one of my questions to biscuit, which remains unanswered is, why do you automatically think that an exercise of faith is impossible for an infant?

I find it fairly ironic that your Calvinist sensibilities has no problem with the notion that God supplies the faith for the elect to believe but quibbles with idea that he could do that for all infants. Sounds like covenant theology has infected your bias.

 

[Ekklesian]

You forced me into getting personal. You should apologize.

Okay. I apologize that biscuit is so sensitive.

Anyone who thinks an infant can exercise faith or know right from wrong is an idiot.

Anyone who thinks an adult can exercise faith without the supernatural intervention of the Spirit is an idiot. Is it too hard for the Lord to reach anyone of any age?

 

[Ekklesian]

...but quibbles with idea that he could do that for all infants.

I don't quibble with the idea that He could do it for infants. Quite the contrary. I espouse it. John the Baptist recognized Mary's greeting while in the womb of Elisabeth. "All infants," though, has no Scriptural support. Esau was rejected also while yet in the womb.

And "all that die in infancy" is an even more arbitrary criterion.

 

[Ekklesian]

I was going to post a painting of infants burning in hell but was too disgusted by it.

As well as you should be by such a carnal and superstitious notion.

You think the souls of infants to be infantile themselves. What fairytale planted that idea in your head?

 

[biscuit1953]

I don't quibble with the idea that He could do it for infants. Quite the contrary. I espouse it. John the Baptist recognized Mary's greeting while in the womb of Elisabeth. "All infants," though, has no Scriptural support. Esau was rejected also while yet in the womb.

And "all that die in infancy" is an even more arbitrary criterion.

Esau did not die in infancy. Esau was rejected by God and went to hell because he was a fornicator and a profane person who found no place for repentance (Hebrews 12:16-17). No one goes to hell for the sins of Adam...we are responsible for our own sins and will be judged for our own works (Revelation 20:11-14).

You are teaching that only infants born of Jewish parents in the Old Testament are saved through blood relationship and in the New Testament through the salvation of their parents. This is no different than what the Pharisees believed (John 8:37-44). When the Bible says that we are “shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Psa 51:5), it is talking about our very nature, this doesn't mean that everyone HAS SINNED the moment they are born.

There are some things we will never fully understand such as why God chooses to save some and chooses to allow others to be left in their sins to divine judgment. Although we have no ability to come to God on our own, the Bible is also clear that we are responsible for the sins we do commit. Men and women are saved by grace but damned by works. Infants and little children don't have that record of works following them (cf. Jonah 4:11).

“[If a deceased infant] were sent to hell on no other account than that of original sin, there would be a good reason to the divine mind for the judgment, but the child’s mind would be a perfect blank as to the reason of its suffering. Under such circumstances, it would know suffering, but it would have no understanding of the reason for its suffering. It could not tell its neighbor – it could not tell itself – why it was so awfully smitten; and consequently the whole meaning and significance of its sufferings, being to it a conscious enigma, the very essence of penalty would be absent, and justice would be disappointed of its vindication. Such an infant could feel that it was in hell, but it could not explain, to its own conscience, why it was there.” The Bible tells us that “God is Love (1 John 4:8).” It would just seem out of character for a loving God to send an infant to Hell for all eternity without the ability to even understand right from wrong. Presbyterian Pastor R.A. Webb (1856-1919)

 

[Ekklesian]

Esau did not die in infancy.

Neither did any of the little ones that were brought to Jesus to be blessed, and yet you assert that every last one of them was an heir of the kingdom. You need to make up your mind.

But dying in infancy is no indication of election. That wholly arbitrary notion is just a comfort pill.

God's purpose, and His purpose alone, is the determining factor in election. He will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

You are teaching that only infants born of Jewish parents in the Old Testament are saved through blood relationship and in the New Testament through the salvation of their parents.

For the last time, I said nothing of the sort. Not even close. So abandon that little brain fart of yours. As is your custom, you brought no hint of exegesis to the Ezekiel passage, and you grossly misinterpreted it.

I brought one tiny grain of exegesis, your house of cards tumbled, and these false accusations you're making are part of a tantrum.

Just stop it.

but the child’s mind would be a perfect blank as to the reason of its suffering.

This is the key carnal and superstitious notion that needs to be recognized as such and rejected--the thinking that the physical state of one's body is any indication of the 'maturity' and 'mentality' of one's soul.

That's just pagan thinking.

That fanciful painting of infants in hell you mentioned is an absurd a notion as would be a painting of embryos or fetuses burning in hell.

 

[biscuit1953]

"You are teaching that only infants born of Jewish parents in the Old Testament are saved through blood relationship and in the New Testament through the salvation of their parents."
For the last time, I said nothing of the sort. Not even close. So abandon that little brain fart of yours. As is your custom, you brought no hint of exegesis to the Ezekiel passage, and you grossly misinterpreted it.

That fanciful painting of infants in hell you mentioned is an absurd a notion as would be a painting of embryos or fetuses burning in hell.

You are teaching that every infant who ever died in the Old Testament went to hell if they were not the physical descendants of Abraham. The Bible is clear that we are judged for our works, not our heritage. No matter how you slice it that is what you are teaching. Your extremist views are heretical and outside the mainstream of Christianity.

 

[Ekklesian]

You are teaching that every infant who ever died in the Old Testament went to hell if they were not the physical descendants of Abraham. The Bible is clear that we are judged for our works, not our heritage. No matter how you slice it that is what you are teaching. Your extremist views are heretical and outside the mainstream of Christianity.

LOL.

For the last time, I said nothing of the sort. Not even close. So abandon that little brain fart of yours. As is your custom, you brought no hint of exegesis to the Ezekiel passage, and you grossly misinterpreted it.

I brought one tiny grain of exegesis, your house of cards tumbled, and these false accusations you're making are part of a tantrum.

Just stop it.

 

[Ekklesian]

I thought I'd respond to some of the other points brought up in the thread.

Esau did not die in infancy. Esau was rejected by God and went to hell because he was a fornicator and a profane person who found no place for repentance (Hebrews 12:16-17).

And Jacob was a liar and a thief. The Scriptures are clear about why one was accepted and the other not, and it wasn't because one was any better or worse than the other. In fact the case is made that they were equal. The reason one was loved and the other hated was God's purpose according to election.

...but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; ) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. - Romans 9:10-13 KJV​

No one goes to hell for the sins of Adam...we are responsible for our own sins and will be judged for our own works (Revelation 20:11-14).

When the Bible says that we are “shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Psa 51:5), it is talking about our very nature, this doesn't mean that everyone HAS SINNED the moment they are born.

The moment Adam fell, we all were corrupted, and a corrupt tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit. We are missing the mark from the moment of conception.

Men and women are saved by grace but damned by works. Infants and little children don't have that record of works following them (cf. Jonah 4:11).

We are judged by our works. Our works are merely the fruit of the sin in our hearts For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: - Matthew 15:19

Sin is what and who we are, not what we do.

"Thou shalt not covet." One does not need an outward work of sin to be condemned. It's man that looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.

What infant is free of this lust? Jacob and Esau fought in the womb, and God pronounced a blessing on him that dashed a Babylonian infant against the stones.

 

[Ransom]

I find it fairly ironic that your Calvinist sensibilities has no problem with the notion that God supplies the faith for the elect to believe but quibbles with idea that he could do that for all infants.

"Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works" (James 2:18). If God gave faith to an infant, how could anyone tell? This is just "we can't know the fate of infants who die in infancy for certain" with extra steps.