Boogers, Witches, and Haints

[aleshanee]

Are you on medication for these? My friends daughter is on clozapine. Not enough to fully silence the voices, but enough to allay the psychosis.

I only started the video. The first story, to me, is clearly demonic. I've heard many, many stories like this. Why would so many people be having the same dreams?

i;m on a whole shoe box full of meds..... primary and secondary meds.... some of the secondary ones are for controlling side effects the primary meds cause... ...and they don;t completely silence voices and strange sounds i hear either... (or think i;m hearing).... ... but it makes them easier to deal with.... plus i have learned many other ways of dealing with them.. and rules to follow that makes handling them easier too - so that the combination of meds and methods works fairly well..... ....not enough to handle living independantly or be allowed to do things the government considers risky or potentially dangerous.... (driving a car... handling a gun.... living on my own etc...).... but well enough....

dreams and nightmare are another story... ..nothing short of being drugged into oblivion stops them... not even the waking or wide awake dreams when they happen... .. but i;ve never seen the kinds of things in dreams i;ve heard of other seeing..... ..(no aliens etc).... ..everything i dream is either related to something i experienced.... a recurrent reliving of an experience ... or something that got into my head some other way by hearing someone talk about something or by seeing something....

but those aren;t the only problems... .. forcing a child into the adult world before she even starts elementry school does both mental and emotional damage that researchers are still trying to figure out... and which so far there has been no way to repair... .one thing they do know for certain is that abuse of that nature at that age stops normal development or emotions in their tracks and causes the brain to cull vital cells so that it begins making other cells do double work or malfunction in bizarre ways........

that;s where the hearing of voices comes in.... i;m not really hearing those voices.... nothing inside my inner ear is picking up sound vibrations and sending the signals to my brain ... that center of my brain responsible for decyphering vibrations an converting them into sounds only thinks it;s receiving the signals from vibrations....... and sometimes it starts playing what it thinks it hears over and over like a tape on a continuous loop... ...knowing that is what;s happening makes it much easier to deal with... but it can still be overwhelming at times.. ...

 

[aleshanee]

Do you try to pray during the waking nightmares?

all the time... when i become awake enough to realize that it;s happening... .... .. no offense- but i hope you are not going to try and tell me that schizophrenia and the symptoms of mental illness and other related problems i have are caused by demons ..sin.. or spiritual rebellion etc .... that has been tried here many times before... ..more so further back in the past than recently.... ....there is a simple medical explanation for waking dreams and nightmares.... just not a simple solution..

but to add something to my previous post... .auditory halucinations... (hearing voices)... are not the only kinds of ways schizophrenia causes a persons brain to play tricks on them...... we can and often do have visual halucinations and olfactory halucinations too.... (strange smells that are not really there) ... .some have more of one specific kind than the others .... as well as different levels of disability than others.... some simply have a few symptoms and no disability at all... it depends on a lot of factors.... some of which could have started or been caused while a person was still in the womb.....

 

[Ekklesian]

all the time... when i become awake enough to realize that it;s happening...

May I ask what you pray? And do you think it helps?

 

[aleshanee]

May I ask what you pray? And do you think it helps?

i pray for God to make it stop..... and yes... i believe it helps.... but i also know that by the time i;m awake enough to realize what;s happening and begin praying it;s on it;s way to stopping already... .... prior to that i;m praying while still in the dream state to make whatever thing it is i;m dreaming to stop... and i;m also fighting like mad against whatever or whoever or it is that;s attacking me.. it;s not only terrifying but it;s also a very dangerous time for anyone to approach me or get too close unless they know what they are doing... . and only my dad, my sister... my dads wife....and one of our room mates can do that... ..but i never go to sleep very far away from at least one of them.... never further away than the next room...... .

now let me ask you a question.... what would you do and how would you handle it if such a thing happened to you?.... ..what would you pray?.... .

it;s not impossible that it could happen...... this and situations related to it can be caused by several different things.... a pre-existing deformity or condition in the brain that manifests itself at any given time in life.... .a temporary illness or medical condition.. a high fever.... outside stimulus like drugs or medications / toxic ingestion or exposure to chemicals.... even a blow to the head that may or may not have knocked you out ...or even a minor injury to the head you might not even remember... .. all of these things can cause or set up a condition in your brain that would cause you to have prolonged waking dreams... cause you to begin sleep walking.. suffering periods of lost time or having short term memory lapses.... or in the most serious of cases cause you to begin suffering seizures...... .

 

[Ekklesian]

now let me ask you a question.... what would you do and how would handle it if such a thing happened to you?.... ..what would you pray?.... .

I've prayed in horrifying dreams often. I have invoked the name and blood of Jesus loudly, and then I wake up, heart pounding; soaked in sweat. Once or twice my wife woke me up. Not that she prayed at all. But that's another story.

There is such travail, that words fail. I know what it is to mourn and make a noise. I take comfort in the knowledge that the Spirit maketh intercession with groanings that cannot be uttered. In those times I fall back on the wording our Lord taught us. And, faced with the terrors you've described, I think that's to where I would retreat, especially to the plea to be delivered from evil.

And I wouldn't cease.

Do you think a Scripture such as Proverbs 3:24 might have some application?

 

[aleshanee]

I've prayed in horrifying dreams often. I have invoked the name and blood of Jesus loudly, and then I wake up, heart pounding; soaked in sweat. Once or twice my wife woke me up. Not that she prayed at all. But that's another story.

There is such travail, that words fail. I know what it is to mourn and make a noise. I take comfort in the knowledge that the Spirit maketh intercession with groanings that cannot be uttered. In those times I fall back on the wording our Lord taught us. And, faced with the terrors you've described, I think that's to where I would retreat, especially to the plea to be delivered from evil.

And I wouldn't cease.

Do you think a Scripture such as Proverbs 3:24 might have some application?

i think a solitary verse like proverbs 3;24 - taken by itself - would apply to me and my medical conditions - my mental and emotional disabilities - and problems caused by those disabilitys... to the same proportion that the verse right in front of it... proverbs 3;23... would apply to someone whose legs were crushed in childhood ... who took years to learn to walk without assistance ...but who still has chronic pain and instability in both legs and feet which causes him to suffer frequent falls and sometimes injuries....

 

[Ekklesian]

I meant 3:24 in context, of course. The walk in Proverbs 3:23 is a figurative walk.

I'm getting ready for work. I have more questions which I may ask this evening. I appreciate your willingness to talk about these things.

 

[aleshanee]

I meant 3:24 in context, of course. The walk in Proverbs 3:23 is a figurative walk.

I'm getting ready for work. I have more questions which I may ask this evening. I appreciate your willingness to talk about these things.

i don;t mind talking about it if you are willing to read what i have to say about it.. ... and as it turns out i have a lot to say... . (but that;s not unusual for me here)... even more so since this - (discussing mental illness) - is a forest i have ventured into many times with many different people... ..some who seemed determined to prove to me i was wrong.. and that somehow i would benefit more from their sage wisdom... even though they don;t know me beyond this forum... than i would from my own doctors who have many years experience in their fields... . or even from my own sister who has a phd in psychology..... ...in most of those discussions i think the person they were really trying to convince of something was themselves.... as if trying to reassure themselves they are right. ...but most of those guys have been gone from here for a long time.... .



concerning proverbs 3-24 ...... in context... all of proverbs chapter 3.. as well as several chapters... is a father - most likely king solomon... talking to his son... most likely the prince rehoboam... who he is training to become the next king of israel...... it even starts off with the words "my son" and does not change who is being addressed anywhere in the chapter ....... so in that alone i would have to wonder how any of proverbs 3 would apply to me... a female.... .....

and if i consider it in the same spirit i have heard fundamentalists explain away 1st timothy 5-23 to someone questioning the fundamentalist disdain for all alcohol consumption.... by asking them if their name is timothy... .. ... then i would come away thinking proverbs 3 - as well as a few other chapters in proverbs - do not apply to me at all.....

and that;s without even considering that if the person being addressed in proverbs 3 really is a prince... then all we have to do is look at the kind of protected, sheltered life a prince lived to know that it is likely he never once in his life up to that point, experienced a moment of fear or risk of being injured... no thugs had ever smashed in his bedroom door in the middle of the night... he had never witnessed a family member murdered.... in short he had no reason or cause for nightmares to invade his sleep.... unless he brought those reasons upon himself through ignorance of sound wisdom or disobedience to God.....

and i believe that is what the father.. solomon.. is saying to his son here in proverbs 3-24. ... that if he continues to obey God .. follow the law and listen to the sound wisdom of his fathers words - as taught in all the rest of proverbs 3 ... then his conscience would remain clear and his memories clean ...... and there would be no reason his sleep should not be sweet.... ...it was never intended to apply to those of us who have already been damaged and all but destroyed by the evil solomon was teaching his son to avoid.... and certainly not intended to serve as a means for others to judge us or condemn us ... or declare us demon possessed ...because we can;t make it apply to ourselves either.... like many fundamentalists i;ve encountered in the past have tried to do.....

but regardless of who any particular section of it was written to there is still sound wisdom in all of proverbs for all of us no matter who we are.... even if we can;t see some of it applying to us directly.. ... that is where prayer and asking God to help us understand the scriptures we read... how each scripture would apply to us.. comes into it... ....that;s something i have done since the day i was saved at 8 years old... and will continue to do..... no matter what happens....

 

[Ekklesian]

By the same tokens, a Christian world view presupposes certain things, one of which is that a thought is the product of a mind, and that a mind is an immaterial thing. Insisting that all can be explained by material, or unspiritual, causes is an error equal and opposite that of the insistence of purely immaterial, or spiritual causes.

I don't presume to be able to understand it all. But I don't have to be a musicologist to discern between the levels of expertise of certain musicians either.

So if listening to what you have to say means to uncritically accept every one of your own conclusions, we can stop now. No hard feelings.

My desire for you is peace. Peace of mind and sweet dreams. And the first step on the path toward that is prayer. I know that much, anyway. And that's why I asked if you prayed.

 

[aleshanee]

By the same tokens, a Christian world view presupposes certain things, one of which is that a thought is the product of a mind, and that a mind is an immaterial thing. Insisting that all can be explained by material, or unspiritual, causes is an error equal and opposite that of the insistence of purely immaterial, or spiritual causes.

I don't presume to be able to understand it all. But I don't have to be a musicologist to discern between the levels of expertise of certain musicians either.

So if listening to what you have to say means to uncritically accept every one of your own conclusions, we can stop now. No hard feelings.

My desire for you is peace. Peace of mind and sweet dreams. And the first step on the path toward that is prayer. I know that much, anyway. And that's why I asked if you prayed.

it sounds like you are accusing me of not having a christian world view...... as if the understanding or beliefs about human consciousness and the workings of the mind are all either black or white....right or born of evil... . material or immaterial... rather than a combination of the two ............

i wasn;t asking you to accept everything i believe without argument.. just to read it all and consider it before you came back with an argument... ... and i;m sorry if came off taking a strong stand on the material side... but i have actually been accused of being demon possessed and not saved many times here .. .by puffed up self important idiots that once scurried about on these forums pretending to be men of God who were concerned about my well being and only trying to help... ... ..and all because of the same mental illness and acute ptsd issues i told you about.... .

so i asked one of them if they thought people who are prone to seizures had demons in their head.... because not that long ago in history that was part of the official "christian world view"..... . he told me no - seizures have been proven to have a medical cause by empirical evidence....... so i told him other mental disabilities and illnesses will be proven by empirical evidence too in time... but he didn;t care... . he was happy to keep assuming his bigoted views were gospel and to keep trash talking people with schizophrenia accusing us of being demon possessed and unsaved until that time comes....

i came off as strong as i did because you appeared to be started down the same road as he did....... even after i told him what my MRI scans had shown ... (something they couldn;t do 20 years ago)..... he continued to cling to his medieval opinion that mental illness was evidence of demon possession.......... too bad you and i never even got to that point of discussing MRI results and what new research has shown here... ....... i think you asked me if i prayed because you assumed i didn;t... and also assumed that if i did pray then it would be the answer to ending the problems i have...nothing else would be necessary. ... well fyi i pray all the time and have been praying for this to end since the day i was saved....... i have had many prayers answered and answered in ways that were undeniable..... .but for some reason this one prayer has not been answered.... yet it is still how every therapy session and treatment i enter into starts....

a very wise christian a lot older and more experienced than you told me once, when i asked why God allows these kinds of things to continue and to torture us - that God often leaves us and others with disablities and incurable medical conditions not in order to punish us or torture us and not to give others reason to judge us either .. ..... but in order to teach both and others to have compassion.... and to help us learn how to show compassion......... in that regard many in the hyper-fundamentalist world have failed the class......

 

[Ekklesian]

it sounds like you are accusing me of not having a christian world view......

I'm not but it does seem to me that you tend to marginalize it.

as if human consciousness and the workings of the mind are all either black or white.... . material or immaterial... rather than a combination of the two

I believe a combination of the two was implied in the first paragraph of the post you're replying to, but you tend to take the black and white approach with some things, yourself, especially in regard to the moral failures of men. Why couldn't there be some kink in the wiring there too, as in the case that Gringo makes for himself on this forum, and not at all sin or some spiritual influence? I'm not saying that are all issues are black and white. Just saying you may not be on as sure a ground as you think you are in your own judgements of what are and are not.

We are corporeal beings as well as spiritual, and one affects the other, no doubt. How do we explain sleep? or Learning? What about amnesia? And how is it that certain kinds of damage done to the body will release one's spirit? I don't claim to necessarily understand it.

The brain is a material organ like the heart or the stomach. To suggest that one's conciousness or mind is seated there is a Materialist suggestion, not a Christian one. Not too long ago I posted an article mentioning a twin girl born whose brain was 80% missing, but she has a perfectly normal mind, and somewhat outpaces her normal twin in intelligence.

I posted another about conjoined twins who share much of one brain. They share some material aspects of the mind, and one can see through the other's eyes, but they don't share their individual abstract thoughts, because those are immaterial and are products of an immaterial mind and not a brain. They also have different desires and wills and have been known to fight. They're two souls, and two minds.

In the cases of auditory hallucinations, are cogent thoughts being expressed by the voices one hears? That's a question I ask myself when trying to make sense things. Is this really a kink in the wiring, or is this the product of an intelligence? Even though Christians don't always know they have this, their defacto premise is that one's mind is primarily immaterial. They don't think they're going to stop thinking, or that they're going to be unconscious or without knowledge or memories when their bodies die. They don't think any human soul will be bereft of those things. So how can those things be solely the product of a material brain? What would an MRI show in the case of the girl missing 80% of her brain? MRIs can only measure material things, and are no real proof of anything to those holding a non-materialist premise of the mind and personality. Your contempt for them for rejecting your proof on that basis is unjustified.

What got us going in this direction was your posting about the experiences of sleep paralysis and waking nightmares. I have somewhat of an interest in these things because of some childhood experiences, and the experiences of others that I have had contact with.

I thought I'd posted about this documentary on such a thing here, but I can't find it.

It's a documentary about Sleep Paralysis and the terrifying manifestations that plague those tormented by it.

It is not told from a Christian persepective, however, in the vast body of documentation about the phenomenon world wide, the manifestations take on few forms conspiciously consistent with ancient folklore.

I recommend it for that data, and for the interview with one woman who began invoking the name of Jesus and found that it drove her tormentor away. She became a believer, and, surprisingly, they let her tell her story in the documentary.

It's not on Netflix anymore, but if you have Prime, you can stream it without paying extra, and it is free on Roku.

 

[aleshanee]

I'm not but it does seem to me that you tend to marginalize it.


I believe a combination of the two was implied in the first paragraph of the post you're replying to, but you tend to take the black and white approach with some things, yourself, especially in regard to the moral failures of men. Why couldn't there be some kink in the wiring there too, as in the case that Gringo makes for himself on this forum, and not at all sin or some spiritual influence? I'm not saying that are all issues are black and white. Just saying you may not be on as sure a ground as you think you are in your own judgements of what are and are not.

We are corporeal beings as well as spiritual, and one affects the other, no doubt. How do we explain sleep? or Learning? What about amnesia? And how is it that certain kinds of damage done to the body will release one's spirit? I don't claim to necessarily understand it.

The brain is a material organ like the heart or the stomach. To suggest that one's conciousness or mind is seated there is a Materialist suggestion, not a Christian one. Not too long ago I posted an article mentioning a twin girl born whose brain was 80% missing, but she has a perfectly normal mind, and somewhat outpaces her normal twin in intelligence.

I posted another about conjoined twins who share much of one brain. They share some material aspects of the mind, and one can see through the other's eyes, but they don't share their individual abstract thoughts, because those are immaterial and are products of an immaterial mind and not a brain. They also have different desires and wills and have been known to fight. They're two souls, and two minds.

In the cases of auditory hallucinations, are cogent thoughts being expressed by the voices one hears? That's a question I ask myself when trying to make sense things. Is this really a kink in the wiring, or is this the product of an intelligence? Even though Christians don't always know they have this, their defacto premise is that one's mind is primarily immaterial. They don't think they're going to stop thinking, or that they're going to be unconscious or without knowledge or memories when their bodies die. They don't think any human soul will be bereft of those things. So how can those things be solely the product of a material brain? What would an MRI show in the case of the girl missing 80% of her brain? MRIs can only measure material things, and are no real proof of anything to those holding a non-materialist premise of the mind and personality. Your contempt for them for rejecting your proof on that basis is unjustified.

What got us going in this direction was your posting about the experiences of sleep paralysis and waking nightmares. I have somewhat of an interest in these things because of some childhood experiences, and the experiences of others that I have had contact with.

I thought I'd posted about this documentary on such a thing here, but I can't find it.

It's a documentary about Sleep Paralysis and the terrifying manifestations that plague those tormented by it.

It is not told from a Christian persepective, however, in the vast body of documentation about the phenomenon world wide, the manifestations take on few forms conspiciously consistent with ancient folklore.

I recommend it for that data, and for the interview with one woman who began invoking the name of Jesus and found that it drove her tormentor away. She became a believer, and, surprisingly, they let her tell her story in the documentary.

It's not on Netflix anymore, but if you have Prime, you can stream it without paying extra, and it is free on Roku.

it appears you have misunderstood much of what i was saying... .. or maybe i just didn;t clarify it well enough.... but i never said demonic activty never plays a part in any case of sleep paralysis... waking dreams... people hearing voices etc.... .. i know very well that it can and sometimes does.... in some people... ..... ... i just know that in my case there is no demonic activity..... ..i hear voices and have the kinds of dreams i do because of an organic schizophrenia that works together with the worst experiences in my memory... and can be dredged up or triggered by a number of different things... .

it;s a schizophrenia common to people who were sexualy abused as children at ages when their brain cells are still developing.... the worse the abuse the worst the schizophrenia and related problems tends to be... . with me it started at age 5 and continued almost daily for the next 4 years.. .. . then i spent another year almost 2 years after being rescued from the worst of that abuse still emersed in the world of sex trade workers which came to an end when i saw my sister murderd and evicerated with a butcher knife by her meth-head boyfriend..... who was also one of the bouncers at the strip club she worked at...... ..

these events are embedded in my memory as if they happened yesterday..... ...and due to the many glitches in the way my brain cells are connected... (glitches due to sexual abuse as my brain was developing).... those memories often manifest themselves in dreams... waking dreams... auditory halucinations and etc......... ...i have been studied and pondered over by many doctors and for many years... counselled by pastors and psychologists.... .subjected to many different tests... . even spents many days and nights from time to time in the psychiatric wards- even restrained in the "rubber" room.. when electrical storms in the brain... (the same kind that cause many kinds of seizures in other people) ... cause me to go into psychotic break downs.....

i am fully aware demonic activity can cause the very same things... ... but in my case i am also 100% certain that it;s not demons... ...... . and i know that for 2 reasons.....


1... i am saved.... bought by the blood of Jesus... saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ..... i was saved at age 8 and have never doubted it once.... i never stopped praying from that moment either... .. i;ve been rebellious and did foolish things a few times, but never doubted my salvation....

2... a saved person cannot be demon possessed..... we are bought and paid for by God - and God does not share ownership of his children with any other entitiy... especially not an evil one.........

however.... things like sleep paralysis and waking dreams can also happen due to severe fatigue and sleep deprivation... short term emotional psychological traumas that don;t result in a permanent brain anomally ....many different things in people who are not schizophrenic and not demon possessed...... even with all our technology and research the human brain is the part of the body we know the least about.... it;s easier to map the floor of the ocean that it is to figure out the brain....

as far as people such as the girl you mentioned born with a brain anomally or most of it missing...but able to live normal lives - there is a big difference in them and someone like me....... if they were loved from birth and able to progress as children are supposed to .. raised in good families..... then what parts of their brains are there will develop in ways to benefit them... but when thrown into the adult world as a child when still too immature to know how to handle it a persons brain begins to develop abnormally... in ways that betray them.... it;s not uncommon for a persons emotional development to stop dead in it;s tracks and progress no further for the rest of their lives... even though they contnue to learn and their intellect develops in other ways..... that;s what happened to me.. at age 5.... ... and it;s also one of the parts of the diagnosis i understand the least.. i don;t see it and i don;t understand it... . don;t even agree with it most of the time.... . but it;s what i am told by every doctor and specialist i have ever seen and i accept it...... i accept it more and more as time goes by due to the numerous times i have ventured out and exceeded my limitations only to fail miserably.. ..sometimes disastrously.....

i am just happy i was able to live in a good family from age 11 on and didn;t have to live my teenage years subjected to the same abuse i suffered as a young child... .i would not be alive today had that been the case.. .. and i know the cases of many girls who are not alive today because of that.. . a few i knew personally.....

but this subject is far too complicated to go into and explain in detail here... my new sister from the family that took me in was inspired to study psychology eventually earning her phd in it because of me - and a desire to learn how to help me.... ...for many years on the fff i posted accounts of my past experiences and told in limited detail how i was abused..... it actually helped me in a way to do that and i continued because people on the forum told me it helped them to understand others like me........ .. but i don;t do that much anymore because most of those people are not here anymore and the current generation of fundamentalists occupying the forum tend to be more judgmental than they are understanding or even forgiving......

 

[Ekklesian]

i am fully aware demonic activity can cause the very same things...

I'm glad that you acknowledge that.

but in my case i am also 100% certain that it;s not the case..... . and i know that for 2 reasons.....


1... i am saved.... bought by the blood of Jesus... saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ..... i was saved at age 8 and have never doubted it once.... i never stopped praying from that moment either... .. i;ve been rebellious and did foolish things a few times but never doubted my salvation....

I'm glad for that, too.

2... a saved person cannot be demon possessed..... we are bought and paid for by God and God does not share ownership of his children with any other entitiy... especially not an evil one.........

While I agree that a child of God cannot be possessed, I would caution you to not be too presumptuous about the Devil's boundaries concerning Christians. Jesus taught us to pray that we not be led into [the] temptation [of the evil one], but to be delivered from [the] evil [one].

Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the Devil.

The Children of the Israel were led into the wilderness to be tempted by fiery serpents and scorpions and drought.

Hymenaeus and Alexander were delivered unto Satan, to learn to stop blaspheming.

Now don't get your dander up. I'm not saying this is your situation. I'm just saying there is a difference between oppression and torment and possession, and the boundary lines between the Devil and Christians may not be drawn as far back as one might suppose.

however.... things like sleep paralysis and waking dreams can also happen due to severe fatigue and sleep deprivation... short term emotional psychological traumas that don;t result in a permanent brain anomally ....many different things in people who are not schizophrenic and not demon possessed...... even with all our technology and research the human brain is the part of the body we know the least about.... it;s easier to map the floor of the ocean that it is to figure out the brain....

I think you're confusing the brain with the mind in your comment about mapping. The human brain has been fully mapped, including its genetics. All motor control and sensory processing centers are known. If one presumes that conciousness, and thought, personality, and identity are also functions of the brain, which is the defacto presupposition with a majority of psychiatrists and other physicians, then of course the brain would be seemingly unfathomable.

The brain is not unfathomable, but the mind is, and the connection between the two is a mystery, as the neurologists I've cited testify, and there is now empiracle evidence of the mind's immaterial nature.

I'm not denying that brain damage and other kinds of trauma can have profound effects on one's mental health, I'm simply cautioning against giving those things more credit than they deserve, and at the expense of the Gospel. The Devil can't be blamed for everything, but neither can brain damage.

as far as people such as the girl you mentioned born with a brain anomally or most of it missing...but able to live normal lives

Whom I mentioned simply as an example of the immaterial nature of the mind, and how, in this case, the mind is unhampered by a severely malformed and practically non-existent brain. The girl is an exception, and I don't think her environment has any explanatory power for the phenomenon.

my new sister from the family that took me in was inspired to study psychology eventually earning her phd in it because of me and a desire to learn how to help me.... ...for many years on the fff i posted accounts of my past experiences and told in limited detail how i was abused..... it actually helped me in a way to do that and i continued because people on the forum told me it helped them to understand others like me........ .. but i don;t do that much anymore because most of those people are not here anymore and the current generation of fundamentalists occupying the forum tend to be more judgmental than they are understanding or even forgiving......

I have great respect for the medical sciences, including psychiatry. I have a deep admiration for those who work to offer some kind of relief for those who are afflicted. It can't be denied that honest observation and exploration of the human psyche will yield keen insights into human behavior and the nature of the human mind. Jordan Peterson is one example. I listened to his seminar on Exodus, not for the theology, but for the psychology. I was enthralled by the parallels he drew between the observations of those in his discipline and of the biblical histories and the revelations in the law.

It also can't be denied that one's world view will determine one's interpretations of his observations and prescribe his treatments. I think the stories of shock therapies and lobotomies from the not too distant past should be ample warning to anyone to be wary of the degree of help to be found in those whose hearts may be in the right place, but who are bound by their Materialistic presuppositions.

Now, about what I meant about leaning on Naturalism at the "expense of the Gospel." There is much that we're told about the human condition and the remedy thereof in the Scriptures. Were there human traffickers in the First Century? Was there child sexual abuse? Was there wife beating and murder? Were there horrors of war and torture and trauma. Were there children who witnessed such things?

Is there any level of victimization that can be inflicted today that didn't happen everywhere and in every age? Of course not.

Was the church equipped to minister to such? Is she equipped to minister to them today?

Why wouldn't she be?

The people of the first century didn't ignorantly and superstitiously ascribe every mental torment to a devil. If there's any difference in the afflictions of this century and the first one, it's that demonic activity is much more subdued. The Devil is bound. He can't deceive the nations and impede the spread of the Gospel, yet the mystery of inquity doth already work, and there are many antichrists. Not only was demonic activity much more overt and widespread in the first century, by and large no one was a Materialist. I think these two factors made people of the first century, as a general rule, more keen in their discernments, not less. Regardless of the nature thereof, when it came to torments of the mind, the church and the doctrines of Christ were the source of healing.

By contrast, I think the defacto Materialism in the mental health profession today is an impedance to their understanding. It's an impedance to any discipline, really, because it's a fallacious world view. How can anyone suggest an immaterial cause, if the immaterial doesn't exist?

but this subject is far too complicated to go into and explain in detail here...

Agreed.