Bob Coy resigns, but followers still want access to his sermons

[ItinerantPreacher]

Interesting discussion... But I must add something here IP not all Baptist are cessationists.

I am aware that Baptist come in odd strains, but by and large, the vast majority are cessassionists.

Actually you would be wrong in both your statements, add IFB are mostly cessationists and your statement would be correct...most Baptist are not even IFB.

While I recognize what you are saying, and yes, most IFB's are cessasionists, I would require more info to convince me that most (not all, but most) Baptists outside of IFB's are not cessasionists.

 

[T-Bone]

Interesting discussion... But I must add something here IP not all Baptist are cessationists.

I am aware that Baptist come in odd strains, but by and large, the vast majority are cessassionists.

Actually you would be wrong in both your statements, add IFB are mostly cessationists and your statement would be correct...most Baptist are not even IFB.

While I recognize what you are saying, and yes, most IFB's are cessasionists, I would require more info to convince me that most (not all, but most) Baptists outside of IFB's are not cessasionists.

That's fine, but from your posts it is clear you have little contact with anyone who is not IFB...it's your contention so I will wait for your research results.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]CC's identify themselves as Charismatic, that tongues are for today. (Doctrine)

Further, Calvary Chapel rejects human prophecy that would supersede the Word of God, and teaches a balanced approach to spiritual gifts, stressing the importance of biblical teaching.

Wanna define "a balanced approach to spiritual gifts"? Now, I never stated they believed in prophetic utterings, I said they believed in the present day use of  tongues. Baptists are cessasionists, they don't speak tongues. You were comparing them to Baptists.

Now do I need to actually pull sermons down from IFB pastors where "God told me..." or "We prayed and God healed..." because these are functionally the same thing? Even better, would you like me to post videos of IFB nuts running around the building, diving into baptistries, throwing clothing, etc?

No, they are not functionally the same thing, you may as well say Baptists are Unitarians because they both meet in a building. Evangelical Christians including Baptists believe in the leading of the Holy Spirit, but not all have thge same belief in the current administration of the sign gifts. Your IFB nuts are the exception, not the rule.[/quote]

I sat in a CC for over four years. Not once did I hear praying/speaking in tongues during a service. In all the small groups, prayer meetings, fellowships, services, etc..., I believe I heard someone quietly praying in tongues in a private manner twice, nothing at all like the AoG I attended during college. In short, "we'll evaluate CC on the exception, but must evaluate IFB on the rule." On the other gifts, their views are virtually identical to Baptistic views...they are just more honest in their terminology.

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher][quote author=rsc2a][quote author=ItinerantPreacher]CC's regard eternal security as an optional belief. Some do, some don't, no big deal. (Doctrine)[/quote]

Maintaining a Bible-centered balance in these difficult issues is of great importance. We do believe in the perseverance of the saints (true believers), but are deeply concerned about sinful lifestyles and rebellious hearts among those who call themselves “Christians.”  - Chuck Smith

I have talked to several CC pastor's. All have stated to me that Eternal Security is not emphasized or required. All I can go by is what they tell me.[/quote][/quote]

I quoted the founder of CC himself on what their beliefs are regarding this topic. But, sure, you "talking to several CC pastors" takes precedence over the published writings of the Chuck.

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher][quote author=rsc2a][quote author=ItinerantPreacher]CC's norm is casual attire (Philosophy)[/quote]

Big deal? Or are you also making this about pants on women?

I never said whether it was a big deal or not. No, not about pants on women (although I am a proponent of no pants on women, but that was not my reference) But, let's face it it is different than standard IFB practice. That was the point I was addressing. (Your a little like Sammy from Over The Hedge)[/quote][/quote]

Oh...now we have to look at the exceptions, not the rule because....something.

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher][quote author=rsc2a][quote author=ItinerantPreacher]CC's polity is based upon the "Moses" model. The pastor is not accountable to either congregation or board. [/quote]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Oh wait...you were serious.

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]They do not identify with any of the three traditional models ie Presbytery, Congregational, or Episcopal (Polity)[/quote]

See 'hahaha' above or should I spell out a fairly normative IFB leadership model?

It is not a normative IFB leadership model, it is the model that has garnered public attention. I was trained by a disciple of JV, and we as a congregation always felt we had the right to hold our pastor accountable. If we didn't, we would have dealt with him. We did not have to.[/quote][/quote]

There's that "normative" word again. I guess if you can dust if off when it makes your argument and dismiss it when it doesn't, you can make whatever argument you want.

Now, let's look at the driving churches within IFB-dom. A pastor vocally and obviously stimulated masturbation in front of a youth conference while other pastors watched, and no one even blinked.

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]CC's do not have a formally recognized church membership. (Doctrine, Polity, Practice and Philosophy all in one)

How Do I Become A Member at CC Santa Cruz?

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher][quote author=rsc2a][quote author=ItinerantPreacher]Membership at Calvary Chapel Santa Cruz is participatory.  That means that there are no vows, tests, or classes. . . you just need to get involved! http://www.calvarychapelsantacruz.org/#/who-we-are/church-membership

[/quote][/quote]

See exhibit A: the IFB churches I know, none of which require "vows, tests, or classes".

Nope, but they require formal membership. By application through three usual means: by letter, by baptism or by testimony  of profession of faith and scriptural baptism.[/quote][/quote]

"I realize that what I said was untrue, but since you called me on it, let me change it to something else. Eventually, something might stick."

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]CC's practice Open Communion. Without a formal membership, it is the only option left. (Practice)

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher][quote author=rsc2a]So do the majority of IFBs I know.

I know none who practice open communion. None. I have been in some 300 or so, and never one. Closed? Yes. Close? Yes Open? Never.
[/quote]
[/quote][/quote]

"The Lord's Supper is for Christians, so if you are a Christian you are welcome to join us. If you are not, we ask that you observe but do not participate because this is...."

Strange....that's what I heard from the pulpit whenever Communion was had in my CC church. Or was it the Baptist ones I've been part of. I forget. Oh yeah! I heard it in both places.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Interesting discussion... But I must add something here IP not all Baptist are cessationists.

I am aware that Baptist come in odd strains, but by and large, the vast majority are cessassionists.

Actually you would be wrong in both your statements, add IFB are mostly cessationists and your statement would be correct...most Baptist are not even IFB.

While I recognize what you are saying, and yes, most IFB's are cessasionists, I would require more info to convince me that most (not all, but most) Baptists outside of IFB's are not cessasionists.

That's fine, but from your posts it is clear you have little contact with anyone who is not IFB...it's your contention so I will wait for your research results.

Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist denomination, and one rapidly turning liberal by Baptist standards.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/vonbuseck_southernbaptist_holyspirit.aspx

While there appears to be an element among them that does not believe "traditional" doctrine, they do not express the view of the convention by and large.

BTW, it was actually your contention that outside of IFB's, "not all Baptists are cessasionists." I agreed, "not all", but qualified it as "most". Seems it was your contention that many are not. You would need to prove that. I will have a hard time proving something that is not so. Evidence of innocence is hard to find. It is the "prosecutions" job to produce evidence of guilt as opposed to the defences job to produce evidence of innocence.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist denomination, and one rapidly turning liberal by Baptist standards.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/vonbuseck_southernbaptist_holyspirit.aspx
[/quote]

No true Scotsman or something?

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

"The Lord's Supper is for Christians, so if you are a Christian you are welcome to join us. If you are not, we ask that you observe but do not participate because this is...."

Strange....that's what I heard from the pulpit whenever Communion was had in my CC church. Or was it the Baptist ones I've been part of. I forget. Oh yeah! I heard it in both places.

Perhaps you did. Hard for me to refute personal experience, but I have never had communion or observed it being served without the warning including at the very least an admonishment to those who were not "members in good standing of a church of like faith and practice". At the very least. Far more, members in good standing of that particular assembly. Often policing was done in whom the elements were offered to.

Course that's just my experience.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

[quote author=ItinerantPreacher]Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist denomination, and one rapidly turning liberal by Baptist standards.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/vonbuseck_southernbaptist_holyspirit.aspx

No true Scotsman or something?
[/quote]? Not picking up what you're putting down.?

 

[T-Bone]

Interesting discussion... But I must add something here IP not all Baptist are cessationists.

I am aware that Baptist come in odd strains, but by and large, the vast majority are cessassionists.

Actually you would be wrong in both your statements, add IFB are mostly cessationists and your statement would be correct...most Baptist are not even IFB.

While I recognize what you are saying, and yes, most IFB's are cessasionists, I would require more info to convince me that most (not all, but most) Baptists outside of IFB's are not cessasionists.

That's fine, but from your posts it is clear you have little contact with anyone who is not IFB...it's your contention so I will wait for your research results.

Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist denomination, and one rapidly turning liberal by Baptist standards.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/vonbuseck_southernbaptist_holyspirit.aspx

While there appears to be an element among them that does not believe "traditional" doctrine, they do not express the view of the convention by and large.

BTW, it was actually your contention that outside of IFB's, "not all Baptists are cessasionists." I agreed, "not all", but qualified it as "most". Seems it was your contention that many are not. You would need to prove that. I will have a hard time proving something that is not so. Evidence of innocence is hard to find. It is the "prosecutions" job to produce evidence of guilt as opposed to the defences job to produce evidence of innocence.

Two things...first your contention that the SBC is turning liberal, please prove this or stop the slander.  I challenge you to name a biblical doctrine that the SBC is liberal on.  And as I have been a pastor in the SBC for over 30 years, again I would challenge you to name on biblical doctrine that I hold a liberal view on. Then would you please list the liberal SBC pastors and their liberal doctrine.

Secondly it is your contention that most Baptist are cessationists, I am not asking you to prove a negative, just prove your statement...you really need to stop you generalities as they are showing your ignorance.

I now wait your proof of the SBC becoming liberal.

 

[rsc2a]

"The Lord's Supper is for Christians, so if you are a Christian you are welcome to join us. If you are not, we ask that you observe but do not participate because this is...."

Strange....that's what I heard from the pulpit whenever Communion was had in my CC church. Or was it the Baptist ones I've been part of. I forget. Oh yeah! I heard it in both places.

Perhaps you did. Hard for me to refute personal experience, but I have never had communion or observed it being served without the warning including at the very least an admonishment to those who were not "members in good standing of a church of like faith and practice". At the very least. Far more, members in good standing of that particular assembly. Often policing was done in whom the elements were offered to.

Course that's just my experience.

In short, you have no idea what CC actually believes and/or teaches because you're batting .000 right now.

Like T-bone said, I think it boils down to you having virtually no contact with anyone not IFB. The overwhelming majority of the Baptists I know are (very) cautiously non-cessationist, especially in areas like missions.

 

[T-Bone]

"The Lord's Supper is for Christians, so if you are a Christian you are welcome to join us. If you are not, we ask that you observe but do not participate because this is...."

Strange....that's what I heard from the pulpit whenever Communion was had in my CC church. Or was it the Baptist ones I've been part of. I forget. Oh yeah! I heard it in both places.

Perhaps you did. Hard for me to refute personal experience, but I have never had communion or observed it being served without the warning including at the very least an admonishment to those who were not "members in good standing of a church of like faith and practice". At the very least. Far more, members in good standing of that particular assembly. Often policing was done in whom the elements were offered to.

Course that's just my experience.

In short, you have no idea what CC actually believes and/or teaches because you're batting .000 right now.

Like T-bone said, I think it boils down to you having virtually no contact with anyone not IFB. The overwhelming majority of the Baptists I know are (very) cautiously non-cessationist, especially in areas like missions.

Exactly... And again as most Baptist are not IFB...your statement is right on,  oh BTW I like the phrase "cautiously non-cessationists .

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

Interesting discussion... But I must add something here IP not all Baptist are cessationists.

I am aware that Baptist come in odd strains, but by and large, the vast majority are cessassionists.

Actually you would be wrong in both your statements, add IFB are mostly cessationists and your statement would be correct...most Baptist are not even IFB.

While I recognize what you are saying, and yes, most IFB's are cessasionists, I would require more info to convince me that most (not all, but most) Baptists outside of IFB's are not cessasionists.

That's fine, but from your posts it is clear you have little contact with anyone who is not IFB...it's your contention so I will wait for your research results.

Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist denomination, and one rapidly turning liberal by Baptist standards.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/vonbuseck_southernbaptist_holyspirit.aspx

While there appears to be an element among them that does not believe "traditional" doctrine, they do not express the view of the convention by and large.

BTW, it was actually your contention that outside of IFB's, "not all Baptists are cessasionists." I agreed, "not all", but qualified it as "most". Seems it was your contention that many are not. You would need to prove that. I will have a hard time proving something that is not so. Evidence of innocence is hard to find. It is the "prosecutions" job to produce evidence of guilt as opposed to the defences job to produce evidence of innocence.

Two things...first your contention that the SBC is turning liberal, please prove this or stop the slander.  I challenge you to name a biblical doctrine that the SBC is liberal on.  And as I have been a pastor in the SBC for over 30 years, again I would challenge you to name on biblical doctrine that I hold a liberal view on. Then would you please list the liberal SBC pastors and their liberal doctrine.

Secondly it is your contention that most Baptist are cessationists, I am not asking you to prove a negative, just prove your statement...you really need to stop you generalities as they are showing your ignorance.

I now wait your proof of the SBC becoming liberal.

So, I would pose my proof in the form of some questions, hopefully informative to you, but rhetorical to me. Let me also state that while you have obviously taken offence, I am not trying to attack you personally. I am very cognizant of the fact that inasmuch as IFB's come in many shapes and forms, not all SBC's are the same either.

Were you aware that the SBC has a longstanding alliance with the China Christian Council? As far back as 1997 the SBC was assigning workers to the Council. Now, in spite of the name "Christian", the council is known for instance by the beliefs of it's former leader KH Ting, who could be described as a rank modernist. He denies that the bible is the word of god, he denies that sinful men will be judged by god, and believes that truth is found in all religions.

Were you aware that in spite of what has been described as a conservative renaissance: in the SBC, that they have never publicly denounced their warm welcome of Pope John Paul II. According to a resolution in Florida in 1994, the SBC is committed to "pursue on-going Southern-Baptist-Roman Catholic conversation". That's from the SBC's site.

Were you aware that the SBC has close ties to Promise Keepers, whose speakers and ties include Mormons and Roman Catholics? Admittedly, the movement does not have the traction it once held, but the associations are still there.

Were you aware that the SBC leaders signed a document called "Evangelicals and Catholics Together"? Their goal is to tie Evangelicals and Catholics together.

Were you aware that Catholic priests are making the rounds speaking at places like Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, or Southeastern Theological Seminary or Beeson Divinity School?

Were you aware that women hold leadership positions within the SBC? As far back as 1997 there were 1225 ordained women in SBC churches.

Look, you may not like Cloud, to be truthful, I a lot of the time don't like his tone or his condescending manner, or his nosiness into business not his, but, I do appreciate the facts he often brings out.
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/whynotsbc.html

Without digging deeper, these are a pretty good start on why I said the things about the SBC I did. If you are offended, I apologize if my manners or presentation was offensive. I do however stand by the nature of my statement.

 

[T-Bone]

Interesting discussion... But I must add something here IP not all Baptist are cessationists.

I am aware that Baptist come in odd strains, but by and large, the vast majority are cessassionists.

Actually you would be wrong in both your statements, add IFB are mostly cessationists and your statement would be correct...most Baptist are not even IFB.

While I recognize what you are saying, and yes, most IFB's are cessasionists, I would require more info to convince me that most (not all, but most) Baptists outside of IFB's are not cessasionists.

That's fine, but from your posts it is clear you have little contact with anyone who is not IFB...it's your contention so I will wait for your research results.

Southern Baptists are the largest Baptist denomination, and one rapidly turning liberal by Baptist standards.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/vonbuseck_southernbaptist_holyspirit.aspx

While there appears to be an element among them that does not believe "traditional" doctrine, they do not express the view of the convention by and large.

BTW, it was actually your contention that outside of IFB's, "not all Baptists are cessasionists." I agreed, "not all", but qualified it as "most". Seems it was your contention that many are not. You would need to prove that. I will have a hard time proving something that is not so. Evidence of innocence is hard to find. It is the "prosecutions" job to produce evidence of guilt as opposed to the defences job to produce evidence of innocence.

Two things...first your contention that the SBC is turning liberal, please prove this or stop the slander.  I challenge you to name a biblical doctrine that the SBC is liberal on.  And as I have been a pastor in the SBC for over 30 years, again I would challenge you to name on biblical doctrine that I hold a liberal view on. Then would you please list the liberal SBC pastors and their liberal doctrine.

Secondly it is your contention that most Baptist are cessationists, I am not asking you to prove a negative, just prove your statement...you really need to stop you generalities as they are showing your ignorance.

I now wait your proof of the SBC becoming liberal.

So, I would pose my proof in the form of some questions, hopefully informative to you, but rhetorical to me. Let me also state that while you have obviously taken offence, I am not trying to attack you personally. I am very cognizant of the fact that inasmuch as IFB's come in many shapes and forms, not all SBC's are the same either.

Were you aware that the SBC has a longstanding alliance with the China Christian Council? As far back as 1997 the SBC was assigning workers to the Council. Now, in spite of the name "Christian", the council is known for instance by the beliefs of it's former leader KH Ting, who could be described as a rank modernist. He denies that the bible is the word of god, he denies that sinful men will be judged by god, and believes that truth is found in all religions.

Were you aware that in spite of what has been described as a conservative renaissance: in the SBC, that they have never publicly denounced their warm welcome of Pope John Paul II. According to a resolution in Florida in 1994, the SBC is committed to "pursue on-going Southern-Baptist-Roman Catholic conversation". That's from the SBC's site.

Were you aware that the SBC has close ties to Promise Keepers, whose speakers and ties include Mormons and Roman Catholics? Admittedly, the movement does not have the traction it once held, but the associations are still there.

Were you aware that the SBC leaders signed a document called "Evangelicals and Catholics Together"? Their goal is to tie Evangelicals and Catholics together.

Were you aware that Catholic priests are making the rounds speaking at places like Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, or Southeastern Theological Seminary or Beeson Divinity School?

Were you aware that women hold leadership positions within the SBC? As far back as 1997 there were 1225 ordained women in SBC churches.

Look, you may not like Cloud, to be truthful, I a lot of the time don't like his tone or his condescending manner, or his nosiness into business not his, but, I do appreciate the facts he often brings out.
http://www.wayoflife.org/database/whynotsbc.html

Without digging deeper, these are a pretty good start on why I said the things about the SBC I did. If you are offended, I apologize if my manners or presentation was offensive. I do however stand by the nature of my statement.

I do not like Cloud, nor do I trust him or his "reporting" things about the SBC or its stand on biblical doctrine, which is far from liberal.  Cloud is an outsider with an agenda, and he has no idea how we pastors dealt with things like the catholic evangelical matter which has been corrected internally... I guess Cloud doesn't want to tell the rest if the story.  Your number of female ordained ministers is suspect at best..  And it would be my bet that you are dealing with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship who still consider themselves SBC, but are not recognized in the Convention.  That being said...once again Cloud is shady with the facts... He infers that the SBC ordains pastor, when in fact the SBC doesn't ordain any pastors, they are ordained by independent autonomous local SB churches . Finally, you still have yet to substantiate that the SBC is liberal...please show any biblical doctrine where the SBC is liberal. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, you can't, I don't know you well enough for that to be possible.

It does irk me for a supposed Christian to get on here and slander a whole group of Bible believing people...that is what satan does.  And even worse you haven't prove your slander, but in the absence of facts and based on statements that do not contain the whole truth, you still "hold" to your statements.  The Word is true... " Let the ignorant be ignorant still"

 

[bruinboy]

Cloud as a source?  Lol, he can't even tell the truth about his edukation. I would believe pastor marty, before that moron.  Carry on.  ;D

 

[Mathew Ward]

If Cloud is your source then I suspect there are problems and considerable bias.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

If Cloud is your source then I suspect there are problems and considerable bias.

I will get to the other stuff when I am not on my phone but I was curious MW, were you suggesting you are not biased?

 

[Mathew Ward]

If Cloud is your source then I suspect there are problems and considerable bias.

I will get to the other stuff when I am not on my phone but I was curious MW, were you suggesting you are not biased?

All of us are biased. Some folks recognized their bias and decided to do away with it when they read the Bible and let the Bible in it's context decide what they believe, not what they were taught.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

If Cloud is your source then I suspect there are problems and considerable bias.

I will get to the other stuff when I am not on my phone but I was curious MW, were you suggesting you are not biased?

All of us are biased. Some folks recognized their bias and decided to do away with it when they read the Bible and let the Bible in it's context decide what they believe, not what they were taught.

We are all biased towards what we believe.

 

[ItinerantPreacher]

I do not like Cloud, nor do I trust him or his "reporting" things about the SBC or its stand on biblical doctrine, which is far from liberal.  Cloud is an outsider with an agenda, and he has no idea how we pastors dealt with things like the catholic evangelical matter which has been corrected internally... I guess Cloud doesn't want to tell the rest if the story.  Your number of female ordained ministers is suspect at best..  And it would be my bet that you are dealing with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship who still consider themselves SBC, but are not recognized in the Convention.  That being said...once again Cloud is shady with the facts... He infers that the SBC ordains pastor, when in fact the SBC doesn't ordain any pastors, they are ordained by independent autonomous local SB churches . Finally, you still have yet to substantiate that the SBC is liberal...please show any biblical doctrine where the SBC is liberal. Don't worry about hurting my feelings, you can't, I don't know you well enough for that to be possible.

It does irk me for a supposed Christian to get on here and slander a whole group of Bible believing people...that is what satan does.  And even worse you haven't prove your slander, but in the absence of facts and based on statements that do not contain the whole truth, you still "hold" to your statements.  The Word is true... " Let the ignorant be ignorant still"

Regarding his inference, I do not think it qualitatively makes a difference whether the Convention ordained women or local churches within the SBC ordained women and nothing was done about it.

Regarding the evangelical catholic matter. Let's not suppose that the fact that it had to be dealt with at all is not a sign of liberalism. One cannot contemplate in the slightest a tie to Rome without being somewhere liberal. You yourself said "the catholic evangelical matter which has been corrected internally". Ok. So it existed. That points out a problem in and of itself. It is one thing to suggest ties to other evangelicals, but to suggest ties to Rome is a whole other ball of wax.

Ok. Here are some links not from Cloud.
Essential Christianity has a good history of the problem of liberalism in the Convention
http://www.essentialchristianity.com/

Free Republic has a list of SBC churches with women pastors. Now, it is probably getting out of date, but, it is from 2012 not 1992.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2973661/posts

The Fundamental Evangelistic Association wrote a recent article on the direction now being taken
https://www.feasite.org/new-sbc-leader-promises-closer-cooperation-liberal-baptists

Here is a link to the advocate site for women in ministry, the focus on women pastors
http://bwim.info/

You keep asking me to "please show any biblical doctrine where the SBC is liberal".
Liberalism is not following what your doctrine says.
In your current Baptist Faith and Message, Artcile VI The Church clearly limits the office of pastor to men. Why so many women preachers? The link is above.

Why does a Convention with such a good doctrinal statement (Your Baptist Faith and Message) allow men like Steve Furtick to poperate under it's umbrella with his "spontaneous baptism" service? Is Steve Furtick sound or liberal? If liberal, the church he pastors is a member of the SBC just as you and yours are.

Is Rick Warren and Saddleback Church with their seeker sensitive movement "sound" or liberal? Once again, belonging to the same Convention you do.

See, to say "we believe something" and then do nothing about it, that is liberalism.

 

[T-Bone]

Your sites prove nothing, you did not deal with the cooperative baptist that I told you they are as much SBC as they are IFB. Don't know anything about Furick and some spontaneous baptism service, nor do I have any input in the matters of a local autonomous church any more than you do over Bob Gray, Dave Hyles, or Peter Ruckman. There was something done about the evangelical/catholic thing, but even that means nothing to you...as you have an agenda and are a slanderer like you father! When are you going to clean up the individual IFB filled with apostate and child abusive preachers?

By your own inane definition, you & all IFB churches would be liberal.  You really need to be more cautious of slandering God' s children, you will answer to Him!

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=T-Bone]...IFB filled with apostate and child abusive preachers?

By your own inane definition, you & all IFB churches would be liberal... [/quote]

I thought about posting something very similar.