Biblical (nouthetic) vs “Christian Counseling”

ALAYMAN

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I’m short on time right now but want to introduce this subject for discussion. I intend on expanding and focusing the nature of the thread over the next day or so, but for the moment just a quick question to start….

Are you familiar with each kind and if so how would you characterize and differentiate them?
 
"Christian" counseling is supposedly a rebranded version of secular psychology.

Nouthetic is supposed to be a strictly biblical and bible-based approach to counseling.
 
Not being familiar with the distinctives, I did some research and found this article.


As you may imagine, I was drawn to the name of the institution... of course it's not related to the Calvary Chapel organization I have been affiliated with for 20+ years. For the most part, I can agree with their doctrinal statements.

What I like is the approach the author takes on the issue. Biblical counseling is biblical counseling. I didn't see where he was dogmatic about one approach over the other.
 
I’m short on time right now but want to introduce this subject for discussion. I intend on expanding and focusing the nature of the thread over the next day or so, but for the moment just a quick question to start….

Are you familiar with each kind and if so how would you characterize and differentiate them?
i have encountered people who advocate the nouthetic method in mental health care and who also advocate it with regards to all other medical issues as well.... ...... we even had one here once and he and i went head to head on the whole issue of schizophrenia and what really causes it.... .. he was convinced it was all demon possession and unresolved sin issues.. .....

my counsellor is a christian as are both of the other 2 doctors i have that provide mental health care for me.... and also my sister who has a phd in psychology..... and they all reject the "nouthetic" method which ..in their opinions... is promoted by people largely uneducated or self taught... and who tend to reject proven medical research in order to cling to superstitions that the bible does not support.. but which "nouthetites" have misinterpreted... misquoted... and in some cases outright misrepresented to make it appear as if it does.....

the bible is without a doubt essential in mental health care but it should not be the only text studied or referred to by a mental health professional any more than it should be the only text studied by a surgeon or cardiologist.. ...but history has shown that the world is stocked full of people who would willingly put themselves under the knife of a surgeon or "healer" steeped in religious knowlge but who had no formal medical education.. so it;s a phenomenon that will always be out there... and will no doubt always have it;s supporters....

 
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I was trained in nouthetic counseling and got the advanced training certificate.

There are wide varieties from the strict Jay Adam's approach to the Westminster University approach. I was taught by Westminster doctorates. A much more balanced approach.

A wise biblical counselor will be careful to align himself with a Christian psychologist/ psychiatrist and know that modern medicine is not an enemy of the faith.
 
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The worst counseling issue I faced was a pedophile. Authorities were quickly informed.

Another situation was with a woman whose hormones were way out of wack. We had a Christian MD in our church who guided her to an OB.

One of my favorites was a teenaged girl who threw up at school and was so scared / embarrassed to back. Her mother tried to get her to go back for a whole week. With 10 minutes of biblical counseling, she left courage!

People need to know their limits and that we do live in a world where "a little wine for the stomachs sake" is the key rather than a Bible verse correcting a sin problem.
 
i have encountered people who advocate the nouthetic method in mental health care and who also advocate it with regards to all other medical issues as well.... ...... we even had one here once and he and i went head to head on the whole issue of schizophrenia and what really causes it.... .. he was convinced it was all demon possession and unresolved sin issues.. .....

my counsellor is a christian as are both of the other 2 doctors i have that provide mental health care for me.... and also my sister who has a phd in psychology..... and they all reject the "nouthetic" method which ..in their opinions... is promoted by people largely uneducated or self taught... and who tend to reject proven medical research in order to cling to superstitions that the bible does not support.. but which "nouthetites" have misinterpreted... misquoted... and in some cases outright misrepresented to make it appear as if it does.....

the bible is without a doubt essential in mental health care but it should not be the only text studied or referred to by a mental health professional any more than it should be the only text studied by a surgeon or cardiologist.. ...but history has shown that the world is stocked full of people who would willingly put themselves under the knife of a surgeon or "healer" steeped in religious knowlge but who had no formal medical education.. so it;s a phenomenon that will always be out there... and will no doubt always have it;s supporters....

I think the first thing one needs is to acknowledge the difference between psychology and psychiatry. Schizophrenia definitely falls into the latter and should not be trifled with by anyone who is not properly trained.

My understanding is that John MacArthur is big into the nouthetic counseling and I would think they would have their heads on straight and not go the "everything is caused by sin and demons" narrative! I know his Church has been sued for malpractice due to someone who had received counseling.

When I was going through my divorce with my first wife, I sought counsel with a NANC trained elder at the Church I was a member of at the time. He was a nice guy, loved the Lord and he seemed well-meaning but woefully untrained. He kept insisting that I was sinning for getting a divorce even though it was my wife who wanted out and I was powerless to stop her!

All in all, based on my experiences, I believe nouthetic counseling is sufficient when strict bible-based counseling is appropriate but we need to remember that the scriptures are sufficient in all spiritual and doctrinal matters but it is not sufficient to tell you how to do things like a valve job on a small-block Chevy or perform open-heart surgery!

If someone came to me and said they were struggling with pedophilia or had a strong urge to shoot a man just to watch him die, I would quickly realize I am way over my head, tell them they need to repent and trust Christ, and then refer them to someone with far more training than I have - Hopefully a Christian psychologist who would not contradict scriptural principles?

I made a pact with God and with the elders of my Church that if God could somehow restore my marriage and get us back on solid ground, I would go through the NANC training and become certified myself. From what I can tell, such training is better suited for self-help and laymen but a professional counselor should be much better trained. You know the rest of the story though and I never felt obligated to follow through with my pact.

I have thought about a Master of Arts in Biblical Counseling which I believe should place you on a professional level for a Church or Chaplaincy but I hear there are also licensed professional Christian Counselors that have private practices and bill their customers in the same manner as a psychologist or other sort of counselor.

People really need to realize that when they open up their mouths to give counsel, they are messing with people's lives who are vulnerable and have placed their trust in you!
 
I firmly believe a person needs to have a strong understanding of Theology, first, .... THEN learn how it applies. Nouthetic Counseling can devolve into demanding legalistic mandates of people.

John MacArthur is moderately nouthetic.
 
I think the first thing one needs is to acknowledge the difference between psychology and psychiatry. Schizophrenia definitely falls into the latter and should not be trifled with by anyone who is not properly trained.

My understanding is that John MacArthur is big into the nouthetic counseling and I would think they would have their heads on straight and not go the "everything is caused by sin and demons" narrative! I know his Church has been sued for malpractice due to someone who had received counseling.

When I was going through my divorce with my first wife, I sought counsel with a NANC trained elder at the Church I was a member of at the time. He was a nice guy, loved the Lord and he seemed well-meaning but woefully untrained. He kept insisting that I was sinning for getting a divorce even though it was my wife who wanted out and I was powerless to stop her!

All in all, based on my experiences, I believe nouthetic counseling is sufficient when strict bible-based counseling is appropriate but we need to remember that the scriptures are sufficient in all spiritual and doctrinal matters but it is not sufficient to tell you how to do things like a valve job on a small-block Chevy or perform open-heart surgery!

If someone came to me and said they were struggling with pedophilia or had a strong urge to shoot a man just to watch him die, I would quickly realize I am way over my head, tell them they need to repent and trust Christ, and then refer them to someone with far more training than I have - Hopefully a Christian psychologist who would not contradict scriptural principles?

I made a pact with God and with the elders of my Church that if God could somehow restore my marriage and get us back on solid ground, I would go through the NANC training and become certified myself. From what I can tell, such training is better suited for self-help and laymen but a professional counselor should be much better trained. You know the rest of the story though and I never felt obligated to follow through with my pact.

I have thought about a Master of Arts in Biblical Counseling which I believe should place you on a professional level for a Church or Chaplaincy but I hear there are also licensed professional Christian Counselors that have private practices and bill their customers in the same manner as a psychologist or other sort of counselor.

People really need to realize that when they open up their mouths to give counsel, they are messing with people's lives who are vulnerable and have placed their trust in you!
there is a lot of truth in what you say... and there is a difference in psychology and psychiatry... but like all other fields in medicine they work together - not against each other....

my primary counsellor... who has the final say in decisions where i am concerned... has doctorates and up to date training in both psychology and psychiatry.... (she is also a lawyer.. but doesn;t practice law)..... ..she is the one who prescribes the meds i need ... evaluates them... and makes changes as necessary.... .. but as you can imagine hers is expensive treatment... so i see another counsellor once a week when things are going well - more than that if they are not... she has a phd in clinical psychology and reports directly to the other doctor as needed.... .. both have known my dad longer than i have and i have been under their care since i was 13..... plus i also have a doctor who specializes in brain diseases and anomalies... ..she orders and evaluated any MRI and blood work that might be needed.... and i have been in her care for many years too....

which actually brings up another important part of successful counselling.... and that is knowing the person very well who is being counselled... knowing their history... their family... and what other things in their life might be influencing them...who their doctors are and what they have diagnosed..... ... . it;s not something that can be picked up and filled in for in a single day or even weeks... . it takes times and dedication to be a help to someone needing it like that..... it should never be considered a part time job or weekend pass time....

for instance - my sister does not practice clinical psychology or do counselling..... from the start her psychology training was put to different uses.... she is another who..like me... rejected a lot of the atheist and progressive ideology that universities try to teach their students... but she still learned the diactics well enough to pass all exams and also be able to accurately discern what was wrong with it.... how much of it was real and useful... and how much was hogwash.... ..but even so..i know that in her opinion the wholesale rejection of psychology by a particular fringe sect of christians is more likely because they don;t like what the field of study in general says about them in general - and not because they have looked at it objectively....
 
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Good discussion so far. Here’s the article that sparked my OP. I’ll comment tomorrow.
 
I studied Nouthetic Counseling in Seminary. Jay Adams was the first one to propose it. David Powlison ran the CCEF for many years. That is the model used by almost every Reformed Baptist church I know. CCEF.org . Powlison edited the Journal for Christian Counseling, in effect nouthetic Counseling. Some hard right wingers might say that CCEF is Christian Counseling not Nouthetic, since they study other methodologies, but their basic resource is the Bible. I have met with Nouthetic Counselors and the method is extremely effective and biblical.
 
Good discussion so far. Here’s the article that sparked my OP. I’ll comment tomorrow.
That is a good article. The author strove to be objective and needs to be commended.

But what I see neglected in the discussion thus far is the subject of fear, and the profound effect it has on the psyches of anyone, faithful or not. I see fear as the root of the problems of guilt and of depression. Works are not a cure for fear. In fact, works exacerbate the problem.

Nouthetic Counseling can devolve into demanding legalistic mandates of people.

And 'Biblical Counseling' will always lose to the secular professions on that basis.

There is a premise that must be accepted if Christianity is true at all, and that is that we are not given the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and of a sound mind.

I am not saying here that I personally have no fear, or that all my thinking is sound. I am saying that I think the biblical counselors are right in the sense that the problems are really problems of the heart. But they think they can change the heart by making manipulations on the surface.

And that just isn't so.
 
A fear of God is important to understand and maintain.

Secular psychologists also have to be careful that they dont offer secular legalism.

2 thoughts to keep this discussion balanced
 
Good discussion so far. Here’s the article that sparked my OP. I’ll comment tomorrow.
She mentions "Competent to Counsel" a fantastic book by Jay Adams. It was the first one I read on the topic. In it, he says that counseling should be handled by competent pastors, not outside professional psychiatrists. Macarthur's book , produced many years later, is much better developed, but follows the patttern.
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That is a good article. The author strove to be objective and needs to be commended.

But what I see neglected in the discussion thus far is the subject of fear, and the profound effect it has on the psyches of anyone, faithful or not. I see fear as the root of the problems of guilt and of depression. Works are not a cure for fear. In fact, works exacerbate the problem.



And 'Biblical Counseling' will always lose to the secular professions on that basis.

There is a premise that must be accepted if Christianity is true at all, and that is that we are not given the spirit of fear, but of power and of love, and of a sound mind.

I am not saying here that I personally have no fear, or that all my thinking is sound. I am saying that I think the biblical counselors are right in the sense that the problems are really problems of the heart. But they think they can change the heart by making manipulations on the surface.

And that just isn't so.
I think that Biblical counselors are the only ones that truly address the heart. Secular counselors address the mind, but they do it with drugs, and they just mask the problem. Only the Word of God can truly change a man or woman's heart, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
 
I had good intentions here, and I know roads are paved with those 😁 but thanks to all for the decent conversational talking points. I still may try to get a few thoughts out regarding the article that spawned the OP, time permitting. Until then, I think the consensus here is that there shouldn't be a hastiness of Christian counselors to exclude the possibility of biochemical or brain-injuries being cause of behavioral problems and that it may very well be necessary and most appropriate in those cases for medical/professional treatment options, not merely assumption of underlying spiritual issues.
 
I think that Biblical counselors are the only ones that truly address the heart. Secular counselors address the mind, but they do it with drugs, and they just mask the problem. Only the Word of God can truly change a man or woman's heart, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
I would agree. Even my Nouthetic profs would say that Psychologists are experts in understanding human behavior. The problem comes in their solitions
 
"Christian" counseling is supposedly a rebranded version of secular psychology.

Nouthetic is supposed to be a strictly biblical and bible-based approach to counseling.
Nouthetic counseling is legalism based used by most IFB churches.
Been there and done that....
 
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