Baptism confusion plagues most versions including KJV and Latin Vulgate

[prophet]

We all look like hens fighting over the last kernel of corn.

This IS an internet forum! The FFF excels!

Das Right!!!

People are actually quoting material from this thread (elsewhere) in a positive manner and calling it research! Now THAT is funny!

It will make its rounds.

Eventually, a quote from another site, that originally posted here, and was cited as research, will end up posted here as research, by someone who looked no further than the other site, and so the cycle continues...

 

[Ransom]

Except now your post here is in the running, because Avery's post was a series of questions, and really not a statement.

Avery doesn't "ask" questions he doesn't already pretend to know the answer to.

 

[bgwilkinson]

Here is Mr. Rotherham's translation where he strips out the ecclesiastical words and replaces them with a translation of the Greek which more closely represents the Bible text.

There is no need to explain the text when you translate rather than transliterate.

ROT  Matthew 3:11 I, indeed, am immersing you, in water, unto repentance,--but, he who, after me, cometh is, mightier than I, whose, sandals, I am not worthy to bear, he, will immerse you, in Holy Spirit and fire: (Mat 3:11 ROT)

Rotherham's Emphasized Bible is a translation of the Bible that uses various methods, such as "emphatic idiom" and special diacritical marks, to bring out nuances of the underlying Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic texts. It was produced by Joseph Bryant Rotherham, a bible scholar and minister of the Churches of Christ, who described his goal as "placing the reader of the present time in as good a position as that occupied by the reader of the first century for understanding the Apostolic Writings."

 

[bgwilkinson]

Here are some more with the word of organized religion replaced by a translation of the Greek.


ROT  Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto all--I, indeed, in water, am immersing you, but he that is mightier than I, cometh, the thong of whose sandals I am not worthy to unloose,--he, will immerse you in Holy Spirit and fire:
(Luk 3:16 ROT)


ROT  Acts 8:36 And, as they were journeying along the way, they came unto a certain water,--and the eunuch saith--Lo! water! What doth hinder my being immersed? (Act 8:36 ROT)


ROT  Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still; and they went down, both, into the water, both Philip and the eunuch,--and he immersed him.
(Act 8:38 ROT)

That is why the Greek is superior!

Actually, the obscurity is in appeal to the Greek, but the English word Baptism is a religious word with a religious meaning. In English there is proper meaning for words (despite what people say or define otherwise) whereas in Greek, now, nobody knows with 100% certainty (apparently). That's why we should trust that the KJB is giving the very words and message of God to the world today and for the future.

I can agree with BP on the fact that Baptism is a religious word with a religious meaning.

The religious meaning changes from one group of organized religion to another.

It would have been so much better to read the word immersion in our English Bibles instead of a word that carries with it ideas not present in the Bible text.

No one would have to take time to explain that it was not sprinkling or some rite of salvation.

I believe the sale of Bibles to non-immerisionists would have suffered as would the profits of the Bible producers were they to use immersion instead of the religious word baptize.

Yes I am a convinced immersionist and hold to the immersionist (baptist) distinctives.

 

[Steven Avery]

Here is a simple question.
Let's say we use immersion as one meaning for baptism. 
Does dipping qualify as immersion?  (dipping a vegetable into a solution, walking into a pool)
Does a covering qualify as immersion? (the ice water challenge, covered with water)
Do you say that immersion is different than submersion, and that submersion is the mode of baptism?

Since nobody answered, and the questions are simple, time to ask again.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Here is a simple question.
Let's say we use immersion as one meaning for baptism. 
Does dipping qualify as immersion?  (dipping a vegetable into a solution, walking into a pool)
Does a covering qualify as immersion? (the ice water challenge, covered with water)
Do you say that immersion is different than submersion, and that submersion is the mode of baptism?

Since nobody answered, and the questions are simple, time to ask again.

I have a simple answer for you Avery. The word immersion has multiple means. When it comes to being completely covered in water. Immersion and Submersion mean the exact same thing.

In fact, any good Thesaurus will tell you this. I'm surprised that Google didn't tell you!!!

Hint, look for immersion and "submersion in liquid"

 

[subllibrm]

I am glad I didn't take the time to completely immerse myself in this thread.  8)

 

[Steven Avery]

I have a simple answer for you Avery. The word immersion has multiple means. When it comes to being completely covered in water. Immersion and Submersion mean the exact same thing.

True.
However, immersion can also mean not being fully covered in water. 

So would you consider such an immersion a valid baptism? 
How would you determine which type of immersion was meant?

Steven

 

[praise_yeshua]

I have a simple answer for you Avery. The word immersion has multiple means. When it comes to being completely covered in water. Immersion and Submersion mean the exact same thing.

True.
However, immersion can also mean not being fully covered in water. 

So would you consider such an immersion a valid baptism? 
How would you determine which type of immersion was meant?

Steven

Why are you moving the goal post?

Just were do you find a definition in which "immersion" in a liquid..... means something different than submersion?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/immersion

: the act of putting someone or something completely in a liquid or the state of being completely in a liquid

a :  baptism by complete submersion of the person in water

 

[Steven Avery]

Immersion Baptism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_baptism
Immersion baptism (also known as baptism by immersion or, if the immersion is total, baptism by submersion) is a method of baptism that is distinguished from baptism by affusion (pouring) and by aspersion (sprinkling), sometimes without specifying whether the immersion is total or partial ....

Any degree of immersion can be called immersion in the context of baptism.  Immersion to the waist or the neck is immersion.  That is the difference.

Beyond that, immersion by itself means nothing, as millions of people are immersed every day in swimming pools.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Immersion Baptism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_baptism
Immersion baptism (also known as baptism by immersion or, if the immersion is total, baptism by submersion) is a method of baptism that is distinguished from baptism by affusion (pouring) and by aspersion (sprinkling), sometimes without specifying whether the immersion is total or partial ....

Any degree of immersion can be called immersion in the context of baptism.  Immersion to the waist or the neck is immersion.  That is the difference.

Beyond that, immersion by itself means nothing, as millions of people are immersed every day in swimming pools.

You're quoting a user generated wiki article. I quoted a reputable source.... surely you can't possibly compare the two. MW clearly references immersion, in the context of baptism as being submerged in water.

Are you saying MW is wrong?

Typical Averyism. Deny any reputable source and selectively quote whatever he feels makes his point.

 

[Steven Avery]

Yes, dictionaries tend to be simplified, even more so when it comes to technical or spiritual words.  The information I gave above is better than what you quoted from MW.

The Church and Baptism: Modes and Symbolism
David A. Banks
http://www.pinehurstumc.org/clientimages/31669/baptismmode.pdf
The first form has two variations, immersion, which has been employed in the Church since at least the second century and possibly the oldest form, and submersion. In immersion, the candidate stands with part of his body submerged in the baptismal water which is then poured over the remainder. This form is the most prevalent depicted in early Christian pictorial representations. Submersion is the form in which water completely covers the candidates body.

The Rites of Christian Initiation: Their Evolution and Interpretation (2007)
Maxwell E. Johnson
https://books.google.com/books?id=otQeg8-xSlEC&pg=PA33
In her book on the architecture and meaning of baptismal fonts, S. Anita Stauffer notes that there have been four different modes of conferring baptism throughout history: (i) submersion, also called dipping, in which the candidate is completely submerged under the baptismal waters; (2) immersion, in which the candidate stands or kneels in rather shallow water and the water is either poured over the head of the candidate or the candidate's head itself is pushed partially into the water...

Stauffer is a Lutheran who looked closely at this question, in On Baptismal Fonts: Ancient and Modern, 1994. In addition to properly making the immersion/submersion distinction, she wrote:

"Symbolically and experientially, submersion is the fullest representation of the paschal meaning of baptism. To be submersed is to be buried under the water; it is (almost) to drown. Submersion is also an effective act of new birth, as the candidate comes up out of the water as out of the womb. Submersion is also the most complete ritual act of baptism as cleansing. For submersion to be practised, the water must be quite deep." p. 9-10 ... "Only submersion—in which (he entire body is completely under the water-has the sign value of drowning, of death, of burial and resurrection with Christ." p. 47

The four-fold distinction is also included in the:

Frank Leslie Cross and Elizabeth Anne Livingstone, eds.. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 3rd ed. (New York: Oxford University Press, 2005), 24, 116, 827,1563, http://www.amazon.com/dp/0192802909/ref=rdr_ext_tmb  as noted in a 2014 article in the American Theological Inquiry, The Early Church's Inconsequential View of the Mode of Baptism by Darren M. Slade https://books.google.com/books?id=-00NBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA22 .

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1996 edition)
https://books.google.com/books?id=ctWbMD0_p_UC&pg=PT1240
"baptism,  consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and  emergence"

This is really rather simple.

Here this distinction was discussed in 1845, in the context of Mark 7:4.

the advocates of"baptism by immersion" do not maintain it. The necessary conclusion, then, is that the word does not signify absolute submersion.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Uj4rAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA148

A book for the times: or, The philosophy of Christian baptism (1846)
Hiram Gilmore
https://books.google.com/books?id=VyA3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA73
"We also remark, that, with a modern author, we prefer in general the use "of the word submersion to that of immersion, as the former seems to express, more fully, entire underwhelming, than the latter, which may be only partial dipping, and, also, as the baptists mean suhmersion or underwhelming, when they speak of their kind of baptism;  though their theory and practice, as we shall show hereafter, do not correspond. Nothing but puttjng men entirely out of sight, or completely under water, can meet their views of Christian baptism, so far as theory is concerned.

Ancient Fonts, Modern Lessons (1998)
T. Jerome Overbeck
https://books.google.com/books?id=A0cf2o6srEsC&pg=PA7
("Immersion" does not necessarily mean "submersion." You can see from the photos that some of these ancient fonts are not large or deep enough for putting an adult completely underwater. Immersion most commonly means that a person stands or kneels in a good amount of water while more water is poured copiously over his or her head.)

Sidenote: even in teaching language, they make a distinction between immersion and submersion.

Steven Avery

 

[praise_yeshua]

Yes, dictionaries tend to be simplified, even more so when it comes to technical or spiritual words.  The information I gave above is better than what you quoted from MW.

The Church and Baptism: Modes and Symbolism
David A. Banks
http://www.pinehurstumc.org/clientimages/31669/baptismmode.pdf
The first form has two variations, immersion, which has been employed in the Church since at least the second century and possibly the oldest form, and submersion. In immersion, the candidate stands with part of his body submerged in the baptismal water which is then poured over the remainder. This form is the most prevalent depicted in early Christian pictorial representations. Submersion is the form in which water completely covers the candidates body.

The Rites of Christian Initiation: Their Evolution and Interpretation (2007)
Maxwell E. Johnson
https://books.google.com/books?id=otQeg8-xSlEC&pg=PA33
In her book on the architecture and meaning of baptismal fonts, S. Anita Stauffer notes that there have been four different modes of conferring baptism throughout history: (i) submersion, also called dipping, in which the candidate is completely submerged under the baptismal waters; (2) immersion, in which the candidate stands or kneels in rather shallow water and the water is either poured over the head of the candidate or the candidate's head itself is pushed partially into the water...

Stauffer is a Lutheran who looked closely at this question, in On Baptismal Fonts: Ancient and Modern, 1994. In addition to properly making the immersion/submersion distinction, she wrote:

"Symbolically and experientially, submersion is the fullest representation of the paschal meaning of baptism. To be submersed is to be buried under the water; it is (almost) to drown. Submersion is also an effective act of new birth, as the candidate comes up out of the water as out of the womb. Submersion is also the most complete ritual act of baptism as cleansing. For submersion to be practised, the water must be quite deep." p. 9-10 ... "Only submersion—in which (he entire body is completely under the water-has the sign value of drowning, of death, of burial and resurrection with Christ." p. 47

The four-fold distinction is also included in the:

Frank Leslie Cross and Elizabeth Anne Livingstone, eds.. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, 3rd ed. (New York: Oxford University Press, 2005), 24, 116, 827,1563, http://www.amazon.com/dp/0192802909/ref=rdr_ext_tmb  as noted in a 2014 article in the American Theological Inquiry, The Early Church's Inconsequential View of the Mode of Baptism by Darren M. Slade https://books.google.com/books?id=-00NBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA22 .

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1996 edition)
https://books.google.com/books?id=ctWbMD0_p_UC&pg=PT1240
"baptism,  consisting of the processes of immersion, submersion and  emergence"

This is really rather simple.

Here this distinction was discussed in 1845, in the context of Mark 7:4.

the advocates of"baptism by immersion" do not maintain it. The necessary conclusion, then, is that the word does not signify absolute submersion.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Uj4rAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA148

A book for the times: or, The philosophy of Christian baptism (1846)
Hiram Gilmore
https://books.google.com/books?id=VyA3AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA73
"We also remark, that, with a modern author, we prefer in general the use "of the word submersion to that of immersion, as the former seems to express, more fully, entire underwhelming, than the latter, which may be only partial dipping, and, also, as the baptists mean suhmersion or underwhelming, when they speak of their kind of baptism;  though their theory and practice, as we shall show hereafter, do not correspond. Nothing but puttjng men entirely out of sight, or completely under water, can meet their views of Christian baptism, so far as theory is concerned.

Ancient Fonts, Modern Lessons (1998)
T. Jerome Overbeck
https://books.google.com/books?id=A0cf2o6srEsC&pg=PA7
("Immersion" does not necessarily mean "submersion." You can see from the photos that some of these ancient fonts are not large or deep enough for putting an adult completely underwater. Immersion most commonly means that a person stands or kneels in a good amount of water while more water is poured copiously over his or her head.)

Sidenote: even in teaching language, they make a distinction between immersion and submersion.

Steven Avery

Hilarious..... do you really believe the practice of some.... sets the definition for everyone else? You love to pick the most obscure references and pretend everyone accepts these minority beliefs.

Go ahead and keep livening your life based on nuts that love to make up their own defintions....

 

[Ransom]

Hilarious..... do you really believe the practice of some.... sets the definition for everyone else?

LOL! Remember whom you are talking to . . . he's a KJV-onlyist. If it weren't for their belief that the practice of a fringe minority sets the standard for everyone, KJV-onlyism would not exist.

You love to pick the most obscure references and pretend everyone accepts these minority beliefs.

It's what gives Stevie the illusion of scholarship. It worked for Gail Riplinger for years, too, until people actual library cards and access to large academic libraries got their hands on her books.

 

[Steven Avery]

Hilarious..... do you really believe the practice of some.... sets the definition for everyone else? You love to pick the most obscure references and pretend everyone accepts these minority beliefs.  Go ahead and keep livening your life based on nuts that love to make up their own defintions....

Read the references again.  I am showing you what is accepted scholarship today and (surprisingly) it is very sensible, reasonable and easy to understsand.  Immersion is distinct from submersion.  And, from the Christian perspective, both are distinct from baptism.

btw, this is why I dismissed your rabbit trail request on the gnat, and pointed you to the pages where the references were given and discussed.  In my experience, you will always simply play games instead of simply saying "interesting, thanks" or even offering any sort of real counterpoint.

Steven Avery

 

[praise_yeshua]

Hilarious..... do you really believe the practice of some.... sets the definition for everyone else? You love to pick the most obscure references and pretend everyone accepts these minority beliefs.  Go ahead and keep livening your life based on nuts that love to make up their own defintions....

Read the references again.  I am showing you what is accepted scholarship today and (surprisingly) it is very sensible, reasonable and easy to understsand.  Immersion is distinct from submersion.  And, from the Christian perspective, both are distinct from baptism.

btw, this is why I dismissed your rabbit trail request on the gnat, and pointed you to the pages where the references were given and discussed.  In my experience, you will always simply play games instead of simply saying "interesting, thanks" or even offering any sort of real counterpoint.

Steven Avery

I told you why I wasn't going to read through your references. I clearly asked you to simply "paste" what you consider to be the weightiest argument. That's not too much to ask. I'm not the one playing games.

I provided reputable references. You google some nut's answer and consider it "reputable". We know who's playing games. Any "nut" can find another "nut" to agree with him on something.

 

[FSSL]

Google 'makes people think they are smarter than they are'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/11507200/Google-makes-people-think-they-are-smarter-than-they-are.html