A question on grace

Bob Jones V said:
When I say I am a Calvinist, and you say "That explains a lot," it tends to indicate that me being a calvinist puts me in a box that is called Calvinist, and once I am in that box, you can determine how I would answer or explain any question. You've boxed me in, you've figured me out.
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There is a problem with that, however. Those who think they have you figured out actually create a strawman, and it's the strawman they address. There are certain things that you would have to be a Calvinist to know.
 
Baptist Renegade said:
Our salvation is ALL OF GRACE!

Grace is unmerited favor and therefore absolutely nothing that we bring to the table!

All of grace, all of Christ and NONE OF US!

God does not give us his grace because we "decide" to accept it! God saves us by his grace and we accept it like a newborn babe takes his first breath of air (Eph 2:1-10).
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You put that pretty awesome! Amen.
 
Foghorn said:
…,. There are certain things that you would have to be a Calvinist to know.
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What does this mean, because it smells a little like Gnosticism?
 
Foghorn said:
Nope, not at all. Did you have your nose in places it doesn't belong? :confused:


Curious, are you a Calvinist?
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You answered a question by asking a question. Let’s try again. What did this mean….

“There are certain things that you would have to be a Calvinist to know.”
 
ALAYMAN said:
You answered a question by asking a question. Let’s try again. What did this mean….

“There are certain things that you would have to be a Calvinist to know.”
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to me it comes off as just more calvinesque-narcissist arrogance.... it means the rest of us lowly creatures are just not smart enough to understand calvinism..... like they always say - calvinism is a religion for "intelligent" christians - doncha know...:rolleyes:
 
ALAYMAN said:
Ok, last chance for genuine dialogue, or you can continue obfuscation and snark, your choice.
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Let me explain it this way, whether you accept it or not is up to you.
I have talked with and debated many non-Calvinists. Many of them think they have a Calvinist all figured out; what they believe, why they believe such, etc... but they don't. They create a strawman and beat that up. If they really understood, they wouldn't create a strawman. But they do not realize it in the first place.


Now, are you a Calvinist?
 
aleshanee said:
to me it comes off as just more calvinesque-narcistist arrogance.... it means the rest of us lowly creatures are just not smart enough to understand calvinism..... like they always say - calvinism is a religion for "intelligent" christians - doncha know...:rolleyes:
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The real irony is that my question was sincere, because it sounds like “drink more ovaltine” to me. Or, as you say, it smacks of a superiority complex.
Foghorn said:
Let me explain it this way, whether you accept it or not is up to you.
I have talked with and debated many non-Calvinists. Many of them think they have a Calvinist all figured out; what they believe, why they believe such, etc... but they don't. They create a strawman and beat that up. If they really understood, they wouldn't create a strawman. But they do not realize it in the first place.


Now, are you a Calvinist?
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No, not a Calvinist. So what is it about the Bible or truth that I just can’t understand since I ain’t one?
 
ALAYMAN said:
No, not a Calvinist. So what is it about the Bible or truth that I just can’t understand since I ain’t one?
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That's not what I meant. I have no idea what you know or how much you know about the bible. So, don't turn it into that.
I did not mean to insult or offend you.

I thought you would understand what I was talking about from my last post.
 
Foghorn said:
That's not what I meant. I have no idea what you know or how much you know about the bible. So, don't turn it into that.
I did not mean to insult or offend you.

I thought you would understand what I was talking about from my last post.
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No worries, and I’m too old to get offended over doctrinal differences. 😁

I think I understand what you meant a little better, and agree that straw men get in the way of genuine logical arguments, but I’ve seen both sides of that street. I just think your statement about “certain things you need to know” was not helpful at illustrating your point, but I ain’t going to quibble with that since I know the essence of what you meant.
 
ALAYMAN said:
No worries, and I’m too old to get offended over doctrinal differences. 😁

I think I understand what you meant a little better, and agree that straw men get in the way of genuine logical arguments, but I’ve seen both sides of that street. I just think your statement about “certain things you need to know” was not helpful at illustrating your point, but I ain’t going to quibble with that since I know the essence of what you meant.
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Thanks bro.
 
Bob Jones V said:
Oh, I see. But you don't know if you are one of the elect, not yet. It just may not be your time yet to believe. I have prayed for you. Paul the Apostle killed Christians, and then God regenerated him. You've not killed any Christians, I hope. So you've still got hope.
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Gringo is personally responsible to make his calling and election sure (2 Pet 1:10). He is also commanded of God (as is everyone else) to turn to God in repentance and faith (Acts 17:30).

I hope he realizes that he is loved by many here (if not all) on the FFF and that many are praying for him!
 
Foghorn said:
There is a problem with that, however. Those who think they have you figured out actually create a strawman, and it's the strawman they address. There are certain things that you would have to be a Calvinist to know.
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in my experiences of arguing with calvinists.... and i have been doing it a long time now..... some calvinists ..(but not all)... make a strawman of themselves - by continually using double speak..vague explanations, and shifting definitions to communicate their beliefs... ....... misleading others into a wrong impression .... rather than just clearly spelling out what they believe and sticking to it.... . ....and i don;t mean referring back to some extra biblical institute ...list of confessions.. cannons of whatever etc etc... and telling us that is what they believe..... that;s what they do when they get cornered on the inconsistencey of their other arguments....

and then when we refuse to accept those confusing and contradictory arguments or don;t want to read a bunch of extra biblical jargon, they claim we are not smart enough to understand calvinism... falling back on the statement that calvinism is a difficult doctrine as if one has to either naturally posess the intelligence or work harder to understand it.....

what?...... work hard to understand something calvinists claim is key to our salvation?......... that can;t be right.... afterall we all believe salvation is a free gift and there is no work on our part involved in it.... . right?....

which brings up my next question i would like to ask of all calvinists... ... just how important is it for a christian to understand calvinism?..... can a person be saved without understanding calvinism at all?..... can we be saved if we reject what the vast majority of calvinists say?............. ....if the answer to that question is yes, then i ask - what is the point?...... what purpose does it serve for calvinists to continue pushing the doctrine?.... to bust into a forum or into a church and make the bold proclamation they were elected by God before the foundations of the world - and challenge anyone to disagree?..... it;s all i ever see some of them do..... to me it comes off as pride and arrogance... ..but is that what a christians witness to the lost about the gospel of Christ is supposed to be about?.....
 
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Baptist Renegade said:
Gringo is personally responsible to make his calling and election sure (2 Pet 1:10). He is also commanded of God (as is everyone else) to turn to God in repentance and faith (Acts 17:30).

I hope he realizes that he is loved by many here (if not all) on the FFF and that many are praying for him!
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it almost sounds like you are saying gringo has a choice...... as if he can decide to make his election sure or to reject it..... and if a person has a choice to decide between one thing or the other.... what is that called?........ :rolleyes:

it;s ok.... you can say it.... no need to raise your hand.... just shout it out........ :cool:
 
Ransom said:
Can you give an example of something I would know because I'm a Calvinist, and couldn't know if I wasn't?
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I think that you understood that sentence as I did, but after hearing his follow-up explanation I think all he meant was that if you're a Calvinist that you get tons of experiential examples of non-calvinists erecting strawmen, I suppose with the implication that calvinists don't typically use such fallacious Biblical argumentation. Not sure how that fact can be categorically proven.
 
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aleshanee said:
it almost sounds like you are saying gringo has a choice...... as if he can decide to make his election sure or to reject it..... and if a person has a choice to decide between one thing or the other.... what is that called?........ :rolleyes:

it;s ok.... you can say it.... no need to raise your hand.... just shout it out........ :cool:
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He does have a choice and he has the responsibility to act accordingly. No Calvinist denies this!
 
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