The theological case for Same Sex Marriage

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christundivided

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Quote from: Izdaari
Actually, I do think a pretty good Christian theological case for SSM can be made. But it can't be made without challenging the premises of fundamentalism, and I don't think it wise or courteous for me to do that in this venue.

Quote from: rsc2a on Today at 02:31:38 PM
    I would disagree.


I thought I would start this thread for rsc2a and Izdarri. It appears they are a little shy. I mean they are basically anonymous here and they are such strong supporters of SSM...... I mean.... logic doesn't dictate their actions. Surely they can defend what they believe.

So here... Have at it. Make the theological case for SSM.

Maybe we can start with

Psa 33:12  Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
 
I'll toss in my 2 cents.  I am personally opposed to same sex marriage only in the sense that it redefines the word "marriage".  Outside of that, I don't care what the government permits, whether it's local, state, or federal.  If two people of the same sex want to "unionize" and get the same legal benefits as married couples, then so be it.  If a "church" recognizes such unions, so be it.  I won't be attending that church.  And if another church refuses to recognize same, then so be it, too, and the government has no place forcing that church to do otherwise. 

Why do I oppose redefining "marriage"?  For the same reason I'm certain most lesbians would oppose redefining "lesbian" to include heterosexual males.  When someone says, "I am a lesbian", there's an identity that goes with the word.  One can assume the person is female, and is sexually oriented to prefer females. 

When I say I'm married (and you can see that I'm a man), then there's an identity that goes with the word.  One can assume that I'm married to a woman. 

I would like to keep things that way.  Otherwise, let me redefine "lesbian" to include heterosexual males, and I demand that everyone treat me like any other lesbian, otherwise I'll sue for violating my civil rights.
 
Castor Muscular said:
I'll toss in my 2 cents.  I am personally opposed to same sex marriage only in the sense that it redefines the word "marriage".  Outside of that, I don't care what the government permits, whether it's local, state, or federal.  If two people of the same sex want to "unionize" and get the same legal benefits as married couples, then so be it.  If a "church" recognizes such unions, so be it.  I won't be attending that church.  And if another church refuses to recognize same, then so be it, too, and the government has no place forcing that church to do otherwise. 

Why do I oppose redefining "marriage"?  For the same reason I'm certain most lesbians would oppose redefining "lesbian" to include heterosexual males.  When someone says, "I am a lesbian", there's an identity that goes with the word.  One can assume the person is female, and is sexually oriented to prefer females. 

When I say I'm married (and you can see that I'm a man), then there's an identity that goes with the word.  One can assume that I'm married to a woman. 

I would like to keep things that way.  Otherwise, let me redefine "lesbian" to include heterosexual males, and I demand that everyone treat me like any other lesbian, otherwise I'll sue for violating my civil rights.

I pretty much agree with you. Yet, I admit I agree because I pretty much have given up on any thing else happening. I can see an argument being made for just letting go. Stick to your own personal beliefs and let things go on as they will go on.

However, I can not make this argument from a theological stand point. I can't. Its not there to make. Throughout Scriptures, governments are called to make moral choices. One of those moral choices should include a proper view of marriage. You can not remove morality from a "good government". You can't legislate real morality. Yet, legislation does set up a proper moral interaction within society.
 
christundivided said:
I pretty much agree with you. Yet, I admit I agree because I pretty much have given up on any thing else happening. I can see an argument being made for just letting go. Stick to your own personal beliefs and let things go on as they will go on.

However, I can not make this argument from a theological stand point. I can't. Its not there to make. Throughout Scriptures, governments are called to make moral choices. One of those moral choices should include a proper view of marriage. You can not remove morality from a "good government". You can't legislate real morality. Yet, legislation does set up a proper moral interaction within society.

We have long ceased to be a Christian nation, and we do not have a good government.  It is entirely corrupt.  We are a banana republic.  I might have once said we were a rich banana republic, but even our wealth is based on funny money.  I weep for our nation. 
 
christundivided said:
Quote from: Izdaari
Actually, I do think a pretty good Christian theological case for SSM can be made. But it can't be made without challenging the premises of fundamentalism, and I don't think it wise or courteous for me to do that in this venue.

Quote from: rsc2a on Today at 02:31:38 PM
    I would disagree.


I thought I would start this thread for rsc2a and Izdarri. It appears they are a little shy. I mean they are basically anonymous here and they are such strong supporters of SSM...... I mean.... logic doesn't dictate their actions. Surely they can defend what they believe.

So here... Have at it. Make the theological case for SSM.

Maybe we can start with

Psa 33:12  Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD; the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.

They don't care if they are anonymous - the reason they give their opposing opinions on the matter is probably because they want people - including those who agree with them who are lurking here - to see that "not all Christians believe that way". How often have you heard that? "Well we don't do that" or "We don't believe that". "That's just those right-wing legalists or nutcases" - I could go on with possible things they think or say but you get the idea. I'll bet they are winning people to Christ that way - yeah, right. Truth wins not Love wins - speak the truth in love not speak whatever you want (even if it is garbage) in love.
 
christundivided said:
Quote from: Izdaari
Actually, I do think a pretty good Christian theological case for SSM can be made. But it can't be made without challenging the premises of fundamentalism, and I don't think it wise or courteous for me to do that in this venue.

Quote from: rsc2a on Today at 02:31:38 PM
    I would disagree.


I thought I would start this thread for rsc2a and Izdarri. It appears they are a little shy. I mean they are basically anonymous here and they are such strong supporters of SSM...... I mean.... logic doesn't dictate their actions. Surely they can defend what they believe.

So here... Have at it. Make the theological case for SSM.

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

I do think a pretty good Christian theological case for SSM can be made. - Izzy

I would disagree. - rsc2a
 
Castor Muscular said:
I'll toss in my 2 cents.  I am personally opposed to same sex marriage only in the sense that it redefines the word "marriage".  Outside of that, I don't care what the government permits, whether it's local, state, or federal.  If two people of the same sex want to "unionize" and get the same legal benefits as married couples, then so be it.  If a "church" recognizes such unions, so be it.  I won't be attending that church.  And if another church refuses to recognize same, then so be it, too, and the government has no place forcing that church to do otherwise. 

And, for the record, this is reasonably close to where I land (although, frankly, I could care less what term SS couples want to use to describe their legal contract).
 
admin said:
This is an absolutely great subject to discuss here. It is an emotional issue, but the issue is certainly not the exclusive domain of fundamentalists or even broad evangelicalism. It can and must be discussed theologically.

Except I think Izzy is the only one (at least regular) who would take the opposing side, and she's understandably not one to get involved in a lot of debate.
 
rsc2a said:
christundivided said:
Quote from: Izdaari
Actually, I do think a pretty good Christian theological case for SSM can be made. But it can't be made without challenging the premises of fundamentalism, and I don't think it wise or courteous for me to do that in this venue.

Quote from: rsc2a on Today at 02:31:38 PM
    I would disagree.


I thought I would start this thread for rsc2a and Izdarri. It appears they are a little shy. I mean they are basically anonymous here and they are such strong supporters of SSM...... I mean.... logic doesn't dictate their actions. Surely they can defend what they believe.

So here... Have at it. Make the theological case for SSM.

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension?

I do think a pretty good Christian theological case for SSM can be made. - Izzy

I would disagree. - rsc2a

I thought I would do to you what you often do to me..... Ignore what I say and insert what you wanted me to say..... :)

Either way, I willing apologize for making a mistake. Be a good fellow and forgive my silliness.
 
rsc2a said:
admin said:
This is an absolutely great subject to discuss here. It is an emotional issue, but the issue is certainly not the exclusive domain of fundamentalists or even broad evangelicalism. It can and must be discussed theologically.

Except I think Izzy is the only one (at least regular) who would take the opposing side, and she's understandably not one to get involved in a lot of debate.

This is true. I have little liking for debates these days. Been there, done that (I was on my high school debate team, and used to love to argue, preferably with informed and committed opposition), but that's not me anymore. Now I prefer to have a friendly discussion about issues, like friends shooting the bull over beers and pizza, rather than an adversarial situation. And as soon as it gets less than friendly, I tend to bow out. I don't need the stress and would rather do something else.

And what I was quoted as saying in the OP remains true: I do not think it would be wise or courteous for me to challenge fundamentalist premises the way I'd have to to make my case, not in this venue anyway.
 
I have seen a theological case made for many things and beliefs.
But, making a Biblical case is a different matter.  :)

I have found Izzy to be honest, sincere polite and informed...even when she is totally wrong..... :)
 
Tarheel Baptist said:
I have seen a theological case made for many things and beliefs.
But, making a Biblical case is a different matter.  :)

I have found Izzy to be honest, sincere polite and informed...even when she is totally wrong..... :)

Why, Tarheel, you say the sweetest things!  :-*

But the last time I was wrong was 2004, when I voted to re-elect Dubya instead of voting Libertarian. And I knew better too. It was a visceral reaction against Kerry.  :P
 
People trying to use theology to say Gay marriage is ok or ordained by God , even tho He did not say that or imply that or meant it was ok thru silence in Genesis detailing man and woman being one flesh, rib from Adam, God created woman and their eventual union. Reminds me of Cain saying I will offer the goods from my land that I worked by my hands to be my offering to God for my redemption.  God said your redemption would come thru an innocent, blood sacrifice. God said this is the way to do it, way I want it done, etc. Mankind thinks it knows what God wants, whether He said or did not say it.
 
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