The Conscience: Helping our brethren develop a proper conscience

[FSSL]

With all of the asceticism espoused, how are we to respond and help them develop a proper conscience? I would like to focus on a strategy for getting our weak brothers and sisters to develop a proper conscience.

2 Corinthians 4:1-2 (NIV): Therefore, since through God

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

With all of the asceticism espoused, how are we to respond and help them develop a proper conscience? I would like to focus on a strategy for getting our weak brothers and sisters to develop a proper conscience.

2 Corinthians 4:1-2 (NIV): Therefore, since through God

 

[FSSL]

So you think everything is boiled down to that freebirds are intellectuals, and anyone that doesn't agree with them is acting purely on emotions?  That is a rhetorical question.

Nope. Never said it nor did I imply it.

Do you think the weaker brother in Paul's day did not have scripture to back him up that eating food offered to idol's is wrong? He had the only scripture there was at that time to prove himself right.  Paul was trying to assert his authority and do a new thing.  The weaker brother will have some scriptures to stand upon.  He may view them erroneously, and that, imo, is where we start.

The weaker brother, in Paul's day, had... Paul. Yes. Get the person to understand what the Scriptures really say.

What you said is true, the word of God is the standard, but all people don't mature at the same time.

Right. But there are expectations that they do mature. Paul was shocked that the Corinthian believers did not mature in the first 5 years of their salvation.

What happens when you try and educate someone and they will have none of it?

Put them on "ignore." LOL!

Do you wash your hands of the responsibility to not cause the weaker brother to stumble?  These are all things that need to be considered, imo.  I made the suggestion of small group education earlier, because that way the weaker brother will hear more life experiences in that setting that will back up the word of God.  He will see decent, Christian people that do the things he is opposed to, yet they have lifes that count for Christ.  When we are one on one, that can be effective too, but we only have our witness.  That is just my idea, and by no means the only way to approach this.

If a believer remains weak and is not willing to study the Scripture, then move on. There is a difference between a "weak believer" and an "obstinate believer." Paul expected the Corinthians to be "strong" and chastised them for being "weak."

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

So you think everything is boiled down to that freebirds are intellectuals, and anyone that doesn't agree with them is acting purely on emotions?  That is a rhetorical question.

Nope. Never said it nor did I imply it.

Ok, that wasn't a fair rhetorical question, so I don't blame you for anwereing it.

Do you think the weaker brother in Paul's day did not have scripture to back him up that eating food offered to idol's is wrong? He had the only scripture there was at that time to prove himself right.  Paul was trying to assert his authority and do a new thing.  The weaker brother will have some scriptures to stand upon.  He may view them erroneously, and that, imo, is where we start.

The weaker brother, in Paul's day, had... Paul. Yes. Get the person to understand what the Scriptures really say.

That can take awhile and involves investing into that person.  But I think we are responsible to disciple our brothers and sisters.

What you said is true, the word of God is the standard, but all people don't mature at the same time.

Right. But there are expectations that they do mature. Paul was shocked that the Corinthian believers did not mature in the first 5 years of their salvation.

Agreed.  Sadly we have pastors that are the weaker brother, and have been for years.

What happens when you try and educate someone and they will have none of it?

Put them on "ignore." LOL!

LOL, if only it were that easy.

Do you wash your hands of the responsibility to not cause the weaker brother to stumble?  These are all things that need to be considered, imo.  I made the suggestion of small group education earlier, because that way the weaker brother will hear more life experiences in that setting that will back up the word of God.  He will see decent, Christian people that do the things he is opposed to, yet they have lifes that count for Christ.  When we are one on one, that can be effective too, but we only have our witness.  That is just my idea, and by no means the only way to approach this.

If a believer remains weak and is not willing to study the Scripture, then move on. There is a difference between a "weak believer" and an "obstinate believer." Paul expected the Corinthians to be "strong" and chastised them for being "weak."

If a believer remains weak for how long?  That is the problem, how patient should we be?  R.C. Sproul looks at it a tad different.  He says it all depends on what the weaker brother tries to accomplish with their beliefs, such as impose it on the rest of the church.  I have an excerpt from his writing, "The Tyranny of the Weaker Brother"


Dealing with Weaker Brothers

Here is the basic issue. If I believe it is a sin to drink alcohol and I drink alcohol, then I have committed a sin. This is not because it is sin itself to drink alcohol but because it is wrong to consciously do what we consider to be a sin. In willingly acting to break what we think is God

 

[FSSL]

Nice post Jim!

 

[biscuit1953]

Nice post Jim!

Now that we have established that it isn't a sin to drink wine, do you think it is always expedient for everyone? Do you really think someone saved out of a life of alcoholism will ever feel comfortable going back to what had so strongly enslaved him?  It is obvious some people have a disposition to alcoholism just as many people have other vices that are a great temptation to them.  Do you feel uncomfortable if someone chooses not to drink?  Do you consider anyone who warns of the dangers involved with adult beverages a legalist?  Just because all things are lawful (that isn't specifically forbidden in scripture) are all things expedient for everyone without exception?  Are we to ignore the many verses that imply it would be wise to abstain from alcohol? 

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:19-20 - Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way.
Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly;

The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.
Jeremiah 35:12-14 - Then came the word of the Lord to Jeremiah, saying, 13

 

[christundivided]

Nice post Jim!

Now that we have established that it isn't a sin to drink wine, do you think it is always expedient for everyone? Do you really think someone saved out of a life of alcoholism will ever feel comfortable going back to what had so strongly enslaved him?  It is obvious some people have a disposition to alcoholism just as many people have other vices that are a great temptation to them.  Do you feel uncomfortable if someone chooses not to drink?  Do you consider anyone who warns of the dangers involved with adult beverages a legalist?  Just because all things are lawful (that isn't specifically forbidden in scripture) are all things expedient for everyone without exception?  Are we to ignore the many verses that imply it would be wise to abstain from alcohol? 

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:19-20 - Hear thou, my son, and be wise, and guide thine heart in the way.
Be not among winebibbers; among riotous eaters of flesh:

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look on the wine when it is red, When it sparkles in the cup, When it swirls around smoothly;

The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.
Jeremiah 35:12-14 - Then came the word of the Lord to Jeremiah, saying, 13

 

[FSSL]

Are we to ignore the many verses that imply it would be wise to abstain from alcohol?

Christundivided did a very nice recap.

The Bible is consistent with its teachings on alcohol. Even in the NT, it is said that an elder must not be given to "too much wine." Jesus provided the finest alcohol to a wedding party as His first miracle. Was He unwise for providing it? Hardly.

Wisdom ALWAYS relates to the conduct of an object, not the object itself.

 

[biscuit1953]

Are we to ignore the many verses that imply it would be wise to abstain from alcohol?

Christundivided did a very nice recap.

The Bible is consistent with its teachings on alcohol. Even in the NT, it is said that an elder must not be given to "too much wine." Jesus provided the finest alcohol to a wedding party as His first miracle. Was He unwise for providing it? Hardly.

Wisdom ALWAYS relates to the conduct of an object, not the object itself.

Is it wise for someone who has a problem with alcoholism to not abstain? 

 

[FSSL]

Is it wise for someone who has a problem with alcoholism to not abstain?

Absolutely. There is no debate here.

This is entirely different from when you said, "Are we to ignore the many verses that imply it would be wise to abstain from alcohol?"

 

[biscuit1953]

Is it wise for someone who has a problem with alcoholism to not abstain?

Absolutely. There is no debate here.

This is entirely different from when you said, "Are we to ignore the many verses that imply it would be wise to abstain from alcohol?"

At least we agree in principle.  However, you seem to completely ignore or make light of those who may have grown up in families that were ravaged with an alcoholic father or mother and have decided that they wish to have nothing to do with it.  That doesn't make them less mature or legalistic in taking a position of total abstinence.

 

[Izdaari]

Are we to ignore the many verses that imply it would be wise to abstain from alcohol?

Christundivided did a very nice recap.

The Bible is consistent with its teachings on alcohol. Even in the NT, it is said that an elder must not be given to "too much wine." Jesus provided the finest alcohol to a wedding party as His first miracle. Was He unwise for providing it? Hardly.

Wisdom ALWAYS relates to the conduct of an object, not the object itself.

Is it wise for someone who has a problem with alcoholism to not abstain?

Anyone who has a problem with alcoholism would be wise to abstain.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=biscuit1953]...  However, you seem to completely ignore or make light of those who may have grown up in families that were ravaged with an alcoholic father or mother and have decided that they wish to have nothing to do with it.  That doesn't make them less mature or legalistic in taking a position of total abstinence.
[/quote]

Some folks thrive off of condescension and ridicule.  It's just the way they roll.  Superiority complexes and all that.

 

[Izdaari]

Is it wise for someone who has a problem with alcoholism to not abstain?

Absolutely. There is no debate here.

This is entirely different from when you said, "Are we to ignore the many verses that imply it would be wise to abstain from alcohol?"

At least we agree in principle.  However, you seem to completely ignore or make light of those who may have grown up in families that were ravaged with an alcoholic father or mother and have decided that they wish to have nothing to do with it.  That doesn't make them less mature or legalistic in taking a position of total abstinence.

It doesn't make them less mature or legalistic, if due to their family history, they decide to totally abstain. However, if their family history makes them decide everyone should abstain, that's a different matter. They are welcome to do as they think is wise. But they are not welcome to impose their personal conviction on others.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=Izdaari]It doesn't make them less mature or legalistic, if due to their family history, they decide to totally abstain. However, if their family history makes them decide everyone should abstain, that's a different matter. They are welcome to do as they think is wise. But they are not welcome to impose their personal conviction on others.[/quote]

Is that your personal conviction? 

 

[FSSL]

At least we agree in principle.  However, you seem to completely ignore or make light of those who may have grown up in families that were ravaged with an alcoholic father or mother and have decided that they wish nothing to do with it.  That doesn't make them less mature or legalistic in taking a position of total abstinence.

Alcohol is a problem for many people. The people at the Wedding in Canaan drank wine all day long and then Jesus made more so they wouldn't run out. Was it wise for him? Was he contributing to their problems? Did He ignore or make light of those who had issues?

It is always up to the individual to recognize his limitations.

Since I have never made light of those who have grown up with alcoholic parents, that absurd argument discredits the point you are making.

 

[biscuit1953]

At least we agree in principle.  However, you seem to completely ignore or make light of those who may have grown up in families that were ravaged with an alcoholic father or mother and have decided that they wish nothing to do with it.  That doesn't make them less mature or legalistic in taking a position of total abstinence.

Alcohol is a problem for many people. The people at the Wedding in Canaan drank wine all day long and then Jesus made more so they wouldn't run out. Was it wise for him? Was he contributing to their problems? Did He ignore or make light of those who had issues?

It is always up to the individual to recognize his limitations.

Since I have never made light of those who have grown up with alcoholic parents, that absurd argument discredits the point you are making.

I believe it was you (maybe not) who disparaged those who see what alcohol has done to society by citing statistics and dismissing it out of hand.  I agree that there is liberty in Christ even though I may not like certain things but to be opposed to something that is responsible for so much misery in the world is not unwise.

 

[Izdaari]

I agree that there is liberty in Christ even though I may not like certain things but to be opposed to something that is responsible for so much misery in the world is not unwise.

To be opposed to it for yourself is not unwise. To be opposed to it for everyone else may be.

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=biscuit1953]I believe it was you (maybe not) who disparaged those who see what alcohol has done to society by citing statistics and dismissing it out of hand.  I agree that there is liberty in Christ even though I may not like certain things but to be opposed to something that is responsible for so much misery in the world is not unwise.[/quote]

What was being disparaged was the fact that those statistics were being cited to make the case for total abstinence regarding alcohol. Others just mentioned that statistics could be given showing the dangers of irresponsible sexual activity and eating, but the idea of total abstinence in those cases is (rightly) considered absurd.

 

[rsc2a]

I agree that there is liberty in Christ even though I may not like certain things but to be opposed to something that is responsible for so much misery in the world is not unwise.

To be opposed to it for yourself is not unwise. To be opposed to it for everyone else may be.

Using the example that I just cited, I wonder if biscuit is opposed to food and sex...