Should the sole surviving daughter of Georgia Pastor illegally here be deported?

[ALAYMAN]

Lidiane Carmo, 15, the sole survivor among her immediate family, came to the United States from Brazil when she was only 2, according to a pastor at International Church of the Restoration in Marietta, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta.

"She is like any regular American girl. (But) she wasn't born here," the Rev. Aron Amazonas said Wednesday. "She acts like an American girl. She almost can't speak the Portuguese language. She doesn't know the people there."

Church members were concerned that the teen could face deportation.

Lidiane and five members of her family were part of a church delegation returning Sunday from a conference in Orlando.

Jose Carmo, another pastor at the church; his wife, Adriana; and their daughter Leticia were killed, along with Jose Carmo's brother, Edsom Carmo, who was driving one of the church's vans, and a companion.

"The Carmo family was in the United States illegally," said Alonso Oliveira, a family friend and pastor. "The family wanted to obtain legal status but had no laws to help them do so."

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-01/us/us_florida-fatal-crashes_1_face-deportation-american-girl-rick-scott?_s=PM:US

1) Should the daughter be deported?

2) Should the church have kept a pastor who they knew was intentionally breaking the law for over a decade?

 

[Izdaari]

Lidiane Carmo, 15, the sole survivor among her immediate family, came to the United States from Brazil when she was only 2, according to a pastor at International Church of the Restoration in Marietta, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta.

"She is like any regular American girl. (But) she wasn't born here," the Rev. Aron Amazonas said Wednesday. "She acts like an American girl. She almost can't speak the Portuguese language. She doesn't know the people there."

Church members were concerned that the teen could face deportation.

Lidiane and five members of her family were part of a church delegation returning Sunday from a conference in Orlando.

Jose Carmo, another pastor at the church; his wife, Adriana; and their daughter Leticia were killed, along with Jose Carmo's brother, Edsom Carmo, who was driving one of the church's vans, and a companion.

"The Carmo family was in the United States illegally," said Alonso Oliveira, a family friend and pastor. "The family wanted to obtain legal status but had no laws to help them do so."

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-01/us/us_florida-fatal-crashes_1_face-deportation-american-girl-rick-scott?_s=PM:US

1) Should the daughter be deported?

2) Should the church have kept a pastor who they knew was intentionally breaking the law for over a decade?

1) Deporting her would be silly, and it would be legalistic nonsense. The girl is an American in everything but documentation, and is not responsible for what her mom and dad did. The immigration system needs reform badly, and needs to have the flexibility to be able to deal with unusual situations like this one.

2) No opinion, I don't know enough about the situation.

 

[ALAYMAN]

[quote author=Izdaari]
1) Deporting her would be silly, and it would be legalistic nonsense. The girl is an American in everything but documentation, and is not responsible for what her mom and dad did. The immigration system needs reform badly, and needs to have the flexibility to be able to deal with unusual situations like this one.

2) No opinion, I don't know enough about the situation.
[/quote]


Agree on point 1.

He was here illegally for over a decade.  His church/senior pastor has known it for sometime now.  What other considerations and info do you think would be pertinent to help render judgment?

 

[Ransom]

2. I assume that the church broke the law if they knew their pastor was an illegal and kept him on the payroll anyway.  If they get into legal  hot water, no one better cry persecution.

1. Are there any Christian lawyers who would be willing to work with the girl to find a way, within the law, that she can legally remain in the States?

 

[Fresh Air]

I was hoping you would make your way here, Al.

 

[FortBuilder 8.25]

Lidiane Carmo, 15, the sole survivor among her immediate family, came to the United States from Brazil when she was only 2, according to a pastor at International Church of the Restoration in Marietta, Georgia, a suburb of Atlanta.

"She is like any regular American girl. (But) she wasn't born here," the Rev. Aron Amazonas said Wednesday. "She acts like an American girl. She almost can't speak the Portuguese language. She doesn't know the people there."

Church members were concerned that the teen could face deportation.

Lidiane and five members of her family were part of a church delegation returning Sunday from a conference in Orlando.

Jose Carmo, another pastor at the church; his wife, Adriana; and their daughter Leticia were killed, along with Jose Carmo's brother, Edsom Carmo, who was driving one of the church's vans, and a companion.

"The Carmo family was in the United States illegally," said Alonso Oliveira, a family friend and pastor. "The family wanted to obtain legal status but had no laws to help them do so."

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-02-01/us/us_florida-fatal-crashes_1_face-deportation-american-girl-rick-scott?_s=PM:US

1) Should the daughter be deported?

2) Should the church have kept a pastor who they knew was intentionally breaking the law for over a decade?

1) if she is illegal, then yes. Deport. Let her get her citizenship like millions of others do, by obeying the law.

2) No, they should not. He was in violation of what St. Paul says in the Bible about obeying the Government.

 

[ALAYMAN]

2. I assume that the church broke the law if they knew their pastor was an illegal and kept him on the payroll anyway.  If they get into legal  hot water, no one better cry persecution.

Precisely.  I think Fortbuilder's thoughts regarding a Christian's obedience to the law (so long as it does not violate Scripture/conscience) are spot on as well.

1. Are there any Christian lawyers who would be willing to work with the girl to find a way, within the law, that she can legally remain in the States?

I believe it's already been decided that she won't be deported. http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/02/02/2621892/undocumented-daughter-of-i-75.html

 

[truthdetector]

Sorry, I don't want to re-read the op due to laziness at the moment.  If, however, it stated she lost all of her immediate family, I think compounding her personal tragedy by forcing her into a foreign country in the midst of her incredible anguish would be heartless.  I think there should be some room for grace in such extenuating circumstances.

 

[Raine]

1) Should the daughter be deported?

No. Following the letter of the law would say yes, but I think there should be some sort of grace extended to minors who did not choose to be in the country illegally. The girl has no family and does not know the language. If they deport her with no family or way of supporting herself, in many parts of Brazil, chances are she will end up being forced into prostitution or other illegal activity to stay alive.  I do think steps should be taken to help her become a legal citizen as soon as possible, without deporting her to a foreign country to fend on her own.

2) Should the church have kept a pastor who they knew was intentionally breaking the law for over a decade?

No. At the very least, they should have required him to go through the proper channels to become a legal citizen, but I think it sets a very bad example and possibly disqualifies him according to I Timothy (unless there are extenuating circumstances but, even then, the government usually makes allowances for asylum seekers).

 

[FortBuilder 8.25]

1) Should the daughter be deported?

No. Following the letter of the law would say yes, but I think there should be some sort of grace extended to minors who did not choose to be in the country illegally. The girl has no family and does not know the language. If they deport her with no family or way of supporting herself, in many parts of Brazil, chances are she will end up being forced into prostitution or other illegal activity to stay alive.  I do think steps should be taken to help her become a legal citizen as soon as possible, without deporting her to a foreign country to fend on her own.

2) Should the church have kept a pastor who they knew was intentionally breaking the law for over a decade?

No. At the very least, they should have required him to go through the proper channels to become a legal citizen, but I think it sets a very bad example and possibly disqualifies him according to I Timothy (unless there are extenuating circumstances but, even then, the government usually makes allowances for asylum seekers).

Is the first part like saying that Bernie Madoff's wife and kids should be able to keep the investments he stole since they didn't actually steal them themselves?

 

[Raine]

Is the first part like saying that Bernie Madoff's wife and kids should be able to keep the investments he stole since they didn't actually steal them themselves?

I would see it more like not kicking them out on the street in a place where they had no connections or way of speaking the language. I do not think allowing people to keep stolen goods is the same as allowing a person to stay in the country they grew up in, since they were here by no fault of their own, and helping them to go through the legal process.

I could understand deportation more if she was of age and chose to come here illegally, but punishing her now for her family's choice when she was a toddler and sending her to a country she has no ties to does not make sense. To me, it would be like catching a woman shoplifting with her child in a stroller, then charging the child as an accessory and sending them to jail once they hit their teens for going along with it - it's punishing someone for choices they were not free to make.

 

[FortBuilder 8.25]

Taking the ill-gotten gains away from the Madoff kids is exactly the same as removing a law-breaker who was brought here as a minor by her parents.

Both benefitted from the crime, while it was perpetrated by the parent.

As to being punished for crimes we did not commit, there is Scriptural precedent for that - it's called Original Sin. Because of sin there is death, and ALL are under the curse and penalty of sin from birth (otherwise there wouldn't be infant mortality, would there? Sin brings death).

Yet because Christ bore our sin and guilt, we have forgiveness, even though we still bear the penalty of death.

She can be forgiven. But forgiveness isn't amnesty (for example, our forgiveness cost the suffering and death of Christ on the Cross, payment had to be made). She is living in violation of the law whether she initiated it or not.

How does she have a SSN? Is it stolen? Driver's License? Who's identity has been stolen and credit destroyed by her living here in direct and clear violation of the law?

 

[Raine]

OK, I can't really compare this to original sin. There's a difference between God's law and man's. There is also a standard under US laws that a person must have means motive and intent. Someone too young to break the law is not generally held guilty for it (look up mens rea).

I agree she should try to make things right, but she's only 15 and hasn't been able to do that on her own. What would you suggest the right actions for this girl to have taken would have been- to call the authorities on her parents and have the family deported, or to walk or hitch-hike back to Brazil as soon as she learned to read a map? At what point do you think a child should possibly violate the 5th commandment and dishonor their parents in favor of honoring the civil laws?

I realize that forgiveness doesn't always bring amnesty, but it often does bring pardon or clemency. God pardoned us because Christ met the conditions of that pardon through his death on the cross. Thankfully, this girl is guilty of breaking immigration laws through no willful action of her own, and that is the question now, not her possible offense against God. US law has a precedent of pardoning those in some cases who broke laws without intent or negligence, so she would be liable for this under the law's own standard -

 

[FortBuilder 8.25]

OK, I can't really compare this to original sin. There's a difference between God's law and man's. There is also a standard under US laws that a person must have means motive and intent. Someone too young to break the law is not generally held guilty for it (look up mens rea).

I agree she should try to make things right, but she's only 15 and hasn't been able to do that on her own. What would you suggest the right actions for this girl to have taken would have been- to call the authorities on her parents and have the family deported, or to walk or hitch-hike back to Brazil as soon as she learned to read a map? At what point do you think a child should possibly violate the 5th commandment and dishonor their parents in favor of honoring the civil laws?

I realize that forgiveness doesn't always bring amnesty, but it often does bring pardon or clemency. God pardoned us because Christ met the conditions of that pardon through his death on the cross. Thankfully, this girl is guilty of breaking immigration laws through no willful action of her own, and that is the question now, not her possible offense against God. US law has a precedent of pardoning those in some cases who broke laws without intent or negligence, so she would be liable for this under the law's own standard -

 

[Raine]

5th Commandment? "Thou shalt not kill"
or are you using Jean Calvin's re-numbering of them? in any case, I agree with your point that it is up to the courts to give clemency.

"Honor thy father and thy mother".
I wan't aware that Calvin re-ordered them. I know he gets blamed for a lot, but I think they are in pretty clear order in both Exodus & Deuteronomy, and that is the order in which I learned them them in some very non-Calvinistic churches. The only ones I was aware of that used the other order are Catholics and, I think, Lutherans.

This girl is here in violation of the law. If the courts, acting as representatives of the collective will of the Nation, in accordance with the law decide to give clemency to her, then she should stay. But the fact remains that through no fault of her own she was brought into a situation where she was daily breaking the law.
...
Personally, I do hope that she, as an orphan, is given clemency. That would be the nicest thing. But the fact remains that she has been in rebellion against the "minister of God" as St. Paul puts it. And remember that the government that St. Paul said to obey, the government he called the "minister of God" was dipping Christians in tar and burning them, as well as feeding them to lions. So, our government then, is also ordained of God, and therefore must be obeyed unless they command us to go against God.

I agree with this, and the rest of your last post. I never denied that she was breaking the letter of the law and that she was accountable under the law. That's why I said they needed to start the process of legal citizenship, so she does not continue breaking the law by remaining here. I was thinking more along the lines of what should happen, leaving room for mercy as well as justice, especially since the law does make allowances for situations like hers in certain cases.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I agree with Raine, that if there's mercy and leniency called for in this ugly scenario, it would be towards the girl/daughter.  The church, well, unless there's some facts I'm unaware of, their reputation is sullied at least a little.