Scriptures - Try, try again, hopefully without derailment.

Mitex

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Dear Reader,
      I'm going to once again try to bring to the forefront the truth of the Scriptures. I do hope that you will read these words and give them careful consideration. I intend to do my best to avoid getting derailed by off the point discussions, such as happened the last time.

Defining the Scriptures:
"The word γραφή (graphe) - Scripture - as used in the Scriptures 51 times is a reference to the anthology of Canonical books recognized by a consensus of Spirit filled believers as the very word of God in written form true in all its parts - it is perfect, pure, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice."

Or as one kibitzer stated:

"The term γραφή (graphe) - Scripture - as used in the Scriptures 51 times in the NT refers to the entire body of canonical Jewish or Christian writings which are and have been properly regarded by believers as divinely inspired, holy and authoritative."

Purpose:
1) Make one wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Tm 3:15, J 20:31)

2) Are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Tm 3,16-17)

The Scriptures not limited to the autographs:
2Tm 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Timothy had the Scriptures - given by inspiration of God - but did NOT have the autographs.

  • “ALL Scripture means that all the writings, then accepted by Jews as the Word of God and which now comprise our Old Testament, are counted as inspired of God.” Our God Breathed Book, John R. Rice, pg 91.

  • “While ‘Scripture’ here [2Tm 3:16] primarily refers to the Old Testament, by extension [derivative!] it also refers to the New Testament.” Pastor Estell of Faithway Baptist Church, Ypsilanti, Michigan.

  • “(2Tm 3:16,17) After exhorting Timothy to hold fast to the sacred scriptures he was taught, and those were the Old Testament scriptures, Paul now proceeds to describe them. ‘All’ is pas, which when used with the singular substantive without the article, means ‘every,’ not ‘all.’ ‘Scripture’ here is graphe, ‘a writing, thing written,’ used of the writings of the O.T. prophets (Matt. 26:56) and of the O.T. scriptures in general (Matt. 26:54). The expression pasa graphe (‘every scripture’) speaks, not of the O.T. as a whole, but of each separate passage considered as a unit. The first thing Paul says about the O.T. scriptures which Timothy was taught, is that every part of them is inspired of God… The context in which Paul is writing is limited to the O.T. scriptures. One could translate, ‘Every scripture is God-breathed.’ The context limits these writings to the O.T. writings. Thus, does Paul declare the divine inspiration of the O.T. The N.T. had not yet been completed, and Paul does not refer here to its divine inspiration. Wuest’s Word Studies, The Pastoral Epistles in the Greek New Testament for the English Reader, Kenneth S. Wuest, 1982, pgs. 149-151.

  • “The New Testament testimony is to the Divine origin and qualities of ‘Scripture’; and ‘Scripture’ to the writers of the New Testament was fundamentally, of course, the Old Testament. In the primary passage, in which we are told that ‘every’ or ‘all Scripture’ is ‘God-breathed,’ the direct reference is to the ‘sacred writings’ which Timothy had had in knowledge since his infancy, and these were, of course, just the sacred books of the Jews (2 Tim. iii,16). What is explicit here is implicit in all the allusions to the inspired Scriptures in the New Testament. Accordingly, it is frequently said that our entire testimony of the inspiration of Scripture concerns the Old Testament alone. In many ways, however, this is overstated. Our present concern is not with the extent of ‘Scripture’ but with the nature of Scripture; and we cannot present here the considerations which justify extending to the New Testament the inspiration with the New Testament writers attribute to the Old Testament. The Inspiration and Authority of the Bible, Benjamin B. Warfield, pg. 163.

  • “‘All Scripture is given by inspiration of God’ (II Tim. 3:16); or if the reading of the Revised Version be preferred, ‘Every Scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching,’ it only makes the affirmation the stronger, because it refers to every one of the sacred writings mentioned in the preceding verse [holy scriptures AV 2Tm 3:15], and comprising the Old Testament books which existed then precisely as we have them now.” Bible Questions, William L. Pettingill, pg. 8.

  • “The word which for our purpose is of supreme importance is the word theopneustos, translated in the English Bible, ‘inspired of God.’ It is a compound, consisting of the elements theo (God) and pneustos (breathed). Now, it is well to note that the word ends in the three letter -tos. In the Greek language, words which 1) end in -tos and 2) are compound with theo (God) are generally passive in meaning…The true meaning is passive, ‘that which is breathed out by God’ and it is this strange designation that the Apostle here applies to the Old Testament.” Thy Word is Truth, Professor J. Young of Westminster Seminary, Philadelphia, pg. 20-21.

Again, as can be seen by the vast array of commentators, Timothy's Scriptures were NOT the autographs, but rather the then extant Old Testament. This is vital in understanding the term Scriptures - given by inspiration of God - as used in the Scriptures. Timothy's standardized copies or translation were considered Scriptures - given by inspiration of God and thus perfect, pure, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice - even though they were NOT the autographs.

This puts a giant hole in the argument that "only the autographs were given by inspiration of God". I believe the Scriptures in any generation or language "is given by inspiration of God." No other kind of scriptures are able to make a man wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus, nor does there exist any other kind of scripture that is necessary for Biblical doctrine. "Is given by inspiration of God" describes the CHARACTER of the Scriptures which is not to be confused with prophets and apostles speaking while being moved by the Spirit of God.

More than one of genuine scholar has insisted that the text is passive, hence, the form "is given by" would most certainly show the passive. "Given" can just as easily be taken as a participle used as an adjective with the verb be as the copular. I'm hard pressed to detail any real difference of meaning in either form.

One doesn't have to hold or see the Scriptures that Timothy had to know their character - given by inspiration of God. Paul stated clearly that the Holy Scriptures that Timothy possessed from his youth have the quality/character of being "given by inspiration of God".

The word of God uses the term Scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16. We therefore know with certainty that the following things to be true:

1. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to the action or art of writing, handwriting, penmanship.

2. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to everything or anything ever written.

3. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to an inscription or superscription; a motto, legend, or posy.

4. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to an unknown written record or composition.

5. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to religious books, apocryphal books, the Koran, the Book of Mormon or Dale Carnegie's, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

6. The term Scripture in this context is a reference to the written words of God true in all its parts, perfect, pure, infallible, inerrant, etc.

7. The term Scripture in this context is a reference to Canonical books, specifically the 39 Old Testament Books.

8. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically say which language the words of God are written in.

9. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically mention the autographs or the New Testament.

10. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically mention whether the Scriptures are a copy or a translation. Although, the full context of 2 Timothy 3:14-17, leads us to believe that it was either a copy or a translation that young Timothy possessed or had access to from his youth. Timothy did not have the autograph, yet, the Holy Scriptures that he had knowledge of from his youth had the quality/character of being "given by inspiration of God".

Paul did not mention these facts specifically anywhere in the Scriptures, yet we, a consensus of born again Spirit filled Christians, know these facts to be intrinsically and axiomatically true.

I submit to you that the term γραφή (graphe) as used in this context refers to the entire body of canonical Jewish or Christian writings, the written word of God, available at that time which are and have been properly regarded by believers as infallible, holy and authoritative. Paul informs us in this context that which has always been inherently true, that the written words of God are given by inspiration of God.

The term Scripture is not the word of God because it is accepted by the people of God, but rather, it is accepted by the people of God because it is the word of God. It is axiomatic that born again Spirit filled believers will accept and believe the word of God.

I. How was the word of God revealed?
Not in "the same manner" as some argue.

A. In sundry times and in divers manners God spake unto his people.

1.  Directly - God spoke directly to people
       
Gen. 2:16The LORD God commanded the man
Gen. 3:8They heard the voice of the LORD God
Gen. 4:6The LORD said unto Cain
Gen. 7:1The LORD said unto Noah
Gen. 12:1The LORD said unto Abram
Gen. 25:23The LORD said unto Rebekah
Gen. 31:3The LORD said unto Jacob
Joshua 5:2The LORD said unto Joshua
2 Kings 10:30The LORD said unto Jehu
 
                     
                     
                     
                   
                 
                   
                   
             

2. Appearances - God appeared unto men

Gen. 12:7, 17:1, 18:1The LORD appeared unto Abraham
Gen 16:7-9The LORD appeared unto Hagar
Gen. 26:2,24The LORD appeared unto Isaac
Ex. 3:2The angel of the LORD appeared unto Moses
Numbers 16:19,20:6The LORD appeared unto the entire congregation
Judges 6:12The angel of the LORD appeared unto Gideon
Judges 13:3,8,8,22The angel of the LORD appeared unto Manoah
1 Samuel 3:4,15,21The LORD revealed himself to Samuel
Mark 16:14Jesus appeared unto the eleven
Acts 26:16 Jesus appeared  unto Paul
1  Cor. 15:5-9Jesus was seen by the apostles

           
                           
                       
                                 
             
                           
             
               
                     
                     
                     

3. Visions - God gave his word through visions

Gen. 15:1The word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision
Gen. 46:2God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night
Numbers 24:4,16Balaam heard the words of God in a vision
2 Samuel 7:4,17The word of God came unto Nathan in a vision
2 Chr. 32:32, Is. 1:1The visions of Isaiah
Daniel 8:1Daniel received the word of the Lord in a vision
Obadiah 1:1The vision of Obadiah
Mt. 17:9Peter, James and John saw a vision
Acts 10:3Cornelius saw a vision
Acts 16:9A vision appeared unto Paul
Acts 18:9The Lord spake by a vision unto Paul

           
           
         
           
       
             
             
                     
                     
                     
                     

4. Dreams - God gave his word in dreams

Gen. 20:3God came to Abimelech in a dream and said.
Gen. 28:12, 31:11The angel of God spake unto Jacob in a dream
Gen 37:5Joseph dreamed a dream
Gen. 41:1,25God showed Pharaoh his word in a dream
1 Kings 3:5God gave Gibeon his word in a dream
Mt. 1:20God gave Joseph his word in a dream
Acts 2:17Your old men shall dream dreams

               
         
                     
               
                 
                       
                   

5. Revelations - God gave his word by revelations

Amos 3:7The Lord God revealeth his secret unto the prophets
Mt. 11:27Whomsoever the Son will reveal him
Mt. 16:17Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee
Luke 2:26It was revealed unto Simeon by the Holy Ghost
**Romans 16:25,26According to the revelation of the mystery
1 Cor. 2:20God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit
2 Cor. 12:1,7Revelations of the Lord
Galations 1:12Received it by the revelation of Jesus Christ
**Epesians 3:3,5By revelation he made known unto Paul the mystery
1 Peter 1:12It was revealed not unto themselves, but unto us
Revelations 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ

               
             
               
             
         
       
       
       
       
       
         

**Notice - but now is made manifest by the SCRIPTURES, Apostles/Prophets by the Spirit of God.

6. Preaching

Titus 1:2,3In due times manifested his word through preaching
Hebrews 1:1,2God spoke through the prophets and his Son
John 3:34He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God
Mt. 9:35Jesus went about the cities teaching and preaching
Acts 8:35Philip preached from the scriptures
Acts 13:5They preached the word of God
Acts 15:35They taught and preached the word of God
Acts 17:13The word of God was preached of Paul
2 Tim. 4:2Preach the word!

       
     
       
               
             
               
             
       
         

In sundry times and in divers manners God spake unto his people. Regardless of the manner in which God revealed His word - directly, appearances, visions, dreams, revelations, or preaching, etc. - the character/quality of the word of God remained the same. It was and is given by inspiration of God - authoritative, perfect, pure, infallible, the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.

 
Mitex said:
Dear Reader,
      I'm going to once again try to bring to the forefront the truth of the Scriptures. I do hope that you will read these words and give them careful consideration. I intend to do my best to avoid getting derailed by off the point discussions, such as happened the last time.

Defining the Scriptures:
"The word γραφή (graphe) - Scripture - as used in the Scriptures 51 times is a reference to the anthology of Canonical books recognized by a consensus of Spirit filled believers as the very word of God in written form true in all its parts - it is perfect, pure, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice."

Or as one kibitzer stated:

"The term γραφή (graphe) - Scripture - as used in the Scriptures 51 times in the NT refers to the entire body of canonical Jewish or Christian writings which are and have been properly regarded by believers as divinely inspired, holy and authoritative."

Purpose:
1) Make one wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2Tm 3:15, J 20:31)

2) Are profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. (2Tm 3,16-17)

The Scriptures not limited to the autographs:
2Tm 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Timothy had the Scriptures - given by inspiration of God - but did NOT have the autographs.

  • “ALL Scripture means that all the writings, then accepted by Jews as the Word of God and which now comprise our Old Testament, are counted as inspired of God.” Our God Breathed Book, John R. Rice, pg 91.
  • “While ‘Scripture’ here [2Tm 3:16] primarily refers to the Old Testament, by extension [derivative!] it also refers to the New Testament.” Pastor Estell of Faithway Baptist Church, Ypsilanti, Michigan.
  • “(2Tm 3:16,17) After exhorting Timothy to hold fast to the sacred scriptures he was taught, and those were the Old Testament scriptures, Paul now proceeds to describe them. ‘All’ is pas, which when used with the singular substantive without the article, means ‘every,’ not ‘all.’ ‘Scripture’ here is graphe, ‘a writing, thing written,’ used of the writings of the O.T. prophets (Matt. 26:56) and of the O.T. scriptures in general (Matt. 26:54). The expression pasa graphe (‘every scripture’) speaks, not of the O.T. as a whole, but of each separate passage considered as a unit. The first thing Paul says about the O.T. scriptures which Timothy was taught, is that every part of them is inspired of God… The context in which Paul is writing is limited to the O.T. scriptures. One could translate, ‘Every scripture is God-breathed.’ The context limits these writings to the O.T. writings. Thus, does Paul declare the divine inspiration of the O.T. The N.T. had not yet been completed, and Paul does not refer here to its divine inspiration. Wuest’s Word Studies, The Pastoral Epistles in the Greek New Testament for the English Reader, Kenneth S. Wuest, 1982, pgs. 149-151.
  • “The New Testament testimony is to the Divine origin and qualities of ‘Scripture’; and ‘Scripture’ to the writers of the New Testament was fundamentally, of course, the Old Testament. In the primary passage, in which we are told that ‘every’ or ‘all Scripture’ is ‘God-breathed,’ the direct reference is to the ‘sacred writings’ which Timothy had had in knowledge since his infancy, and these were, of course, just the sacred books of the Jews (2 Tim. iii,16). What is explicit here is implicit in all the allusions to the inspired Scriptures in the New Testament. Accordingly, it is frequently said that our entire testimony of the inspiration of Scripture concerns the Old Testament alone. In many ways, however, this is overstated. Our present concern is not with the extent of ‘Scripture’ but with the nature of Scripture; and we cannot present here the considerations which justify extending to the New Testament the inspiration with the New Testament writers attribute to the Old Testament. The Inspiration and Authority of the Bible, Benjamin B. Warfield, pg. 163.
  • “‘All Scripture is given by inspiration of God’ (II Tim. 3:16); or if the reading of the Revised Version be preferred, ‘Every Scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching,’ it only makes the affirmation the stronger, because it refers to every one of the sacred writings mentioned in the preceding verse [holy scriptures AV 2Tm 3:15], and comprising the Old Testament books which existed then precisely as we have them now.” Bible Questions, William L. Pettingill, pg. 8.
  • “The word which for our purpose is of supreme importance is the word theopneustos, translated in the English Bible, ‘inspired of God.’ It is a compound, consisting of the elements theo (God) and pneustos (breathed). Now, it is well to note that the word ends in the three letter -tos. In the Greek language, words which 1) end in -tos and 2) are compound with theo (God) are generally passive in meaning…The true meaning is passive, ‘that which is breathed out by God’ and it is this strange designation that the Apostle here applies to the Old Testament.” Thy Word is Truth, Professor J. Young of Westminster Seminary, Philadelphia, pg. 20-21.

Again, as can be seen by the vast array of commentators, Timothy's Scriptures were NOT the autographs, but rather the then extant Old Testament. This is vital in understanding the term Scriptures - given by inspiration of God - as used in the Scriptures. Timothy's standardized copies or translation were considered Scriptures - given by inspiration of God and thus perfect, pure, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice - even though they were NOT the autographs.

This puts a giant hole in the argument that "only the autographs were given by inspiration of God". I believe the Scriptures in any generation or language "is given by inspiration of God." No other kind of scriptures are able to make a man wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus, nor does there exist any other kind of scripture that is necessary for Biblical doctrine. "Is given by inspiration of God" describes the CHARACTER of the Scriptures which is not to be confused with prophets and apostles speaking while being moved by the Spirit of God.

More than one of genuine scholar has insisted that the text is passive, hence, the form "is given by" would most certainly show the passive. "Given" can just as easily be taken as a participle used as an adjective with the verb be as the copular. I'm hard pressed to detail any real difference of meaning in either form.

One doesn't have to hold or see the Scriptures that Timothy had to know their character - given by inspiration of God. Paul stated clearly that the Holy Scriptures that Timothy possessed from his youth have the quality/character of being "given by inspiration of God".

The word of God uses the term Scripture in 2 Timothy 3:16. We therefore know with certainty that the following things to be true:

1. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to the action or art of writing, handwriting, penmanship.

2. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to everything or anything ever written.

3. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to an inscription or superscription; a motto, legend, or posy.

4. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to an unknown written record or composition.

5. The term Scripture in this context is not a reference to religious books, apocryphal books, the Koran, the Book of Mormon or Dale Carnegie's, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

6. The term Scripture in this context is a reference to the written words of God true in all its parts, perfect, pure, infallible, inerrant, etc.

7. The term Scripture in this context is a reference to Canonical books, specifically the 39 Old Testament Books.

8. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically say which language the words of God are written in.

9. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically mention the autographs or the New Testament.

10. The term Scripture in this context does not specifically mention whether the Scriptures are a copy or a translation. Although, the full context of 2 Timothy 3:14-17, leads us to believe that it was either a copy or a translation that young Timothy possessed or had access to from his youth. Timothy did not have the autograph, yet, the Holy Scriptures that he had knowledge of from his youth had the quality/character of being "given by inspiration of God".

Paul did not mention these facts specifically anywhere in the Scriptures, yet we, a consensus of born again Spirit filled Christians, know these facts to be intrinsically and axiomatically true.

I submit to you that the term γραφή (graphe) as used in this context refers to the entire body of canonical Jewish or Christian writings, the written word of God, available at that time which are and have been properly regarded by believers as infallible, holy and authoritative. Paul informs us in this context that which has always been inherently true, that the written words of God are given by inspiration of God.

The term Scripture is not the word of God because it is accepted by the people of God, but rather, it is accepted by the people of God because it is the word of God. It is axiomatic that born again Spirit filled believers will accept and believe the word of God.

I. How was the word of God revealed?
Not in "the same manner" as some argue.

A. In sundry times and in divers manners God spake unto his people.

1.  Directly - God spoke directly to people
       
Gen. 2:16The LORD God commanded the man
Gen. 3:8They heard the voice of the LORD God
Gen. 4:6The LORD said unto Cain
Gen. 7:1The LORD said unto Noah
Gen. 12:1The LORD said unto Abram
Gen. 25:23The LORD said unto Rebekah
Gen. 31:3The LORD said unto Jacob
Joshua 5:2The LORD said unto Joshua
2 Kings 10:30The LORD said unto Jehu
 
                     
                     
                     
                   
                 
                   
                   
             

2. Appearances - God appeared unto men

Gen. 12:7, 17:1, 18:1The LORD appeared unto Abraham
Gen 16:7-9The LORD appeared unto Hagar
Gen. 26:2,24The LORD appeared unto Isaac
Ex. 3:2The angel of the LORD appeared unto Moses
Numbers 16:19,20:6The LORD appeared unto the entire congregation
Judges 6:12The angel of the LORD appeared unto Gideon
Judges 13:3,8,8,22The angel of the LORD appeared unto Manoah
1 Samuel 3:4,15,21The LORD revealed himself to Samuel
Mark 16:14Jesus appeared unto the eleven
Acts 26:16 Jesus appeared  unto Paul
1  Cor. 15:5-9Jesus was seen by the apostles

           
                           
                       
                                 
             
                           
             
               
                     
                     
                     

3. Visions - God gave his word through visions

Gen. 15:1The word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision
Gen. 46:2God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night
Numbers 24:4,16Balaam heard the words of God in a vision
2 Samuel 7:4,17The word of God came unto Nathan in a vision
2 Chr. 32:32, Is. 1:1The visions of Isaiah
Daniel 8:1Daniel received the word of the Lord in a vision
Obadiah 1:1The vision of Obadiah
Mt. 17:9Peter, James and John saw a vision
Acts 10:3Cornelius saw a vision
Acts 16:9A vision appeared unto Paul
Acts 18:9The Lord spake by a vision unto Paul

           
           
         
           
       
             
             
                     
                     
                     
                     

4. Dreams - God gave his word in dreams

Gen. 20:3God came to Abimelech in a dream and said.
Gen. 28:12, 31:11The angel of God spake unto Jacob in a dream
Gen 37:5Joseph dreamed a dream
Gen. 41:1,25God showed Pharaoh his word in a dream
1 Kings 3:5God gave Gibeon his word in a dream
Mt. 1:20God gave Joseph his word in a dream
Acts 2:17Your old men shall dream dreams

               
         
                     
               
                 
                       
                   

5. Revelations - God gave his word by revelations

Amos 3:7The Lord God revealeth his secret unto the prophets
Mt. 11:27Whomsoever the Son will reveal him
Mt. 16:17Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee
Luke 2:26It was revealed unto Simeon by the Holy Ghost
**Romans 16:25,26According to the revelation of the mystery
1 Cor. 2:20God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit
2 Cor. 12:1,7Revelations of the Lord
Galations 1:12Received it by the revelation of Jesus Christ
**Epesians 3:3,5By revelation he made known unto Paul the mystery
1 Peter 1:12It was revealed not unto themselves, but unto us
Revelations 1:1The Revelation of Jesus Christ

               
             
               
             
         
       
       
       
       
       
         

**Notice - but now is made manifest by the SCRIPTURES, Apostles/Prophets by the Spirit of God.

6. Preaching

Titus 1:2,3In due times manifested his word through preaching
Hebrews 1:1,2God spoke through the prophets and his Son
John 3:34He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God
Mt. 9:35Jesus went about the cities teaching and preaching
Acts 8:35Philip preached from the scriptures
Acts 13:5They preached the word of God
Acts 15:35They taught and preached the word of God
Acts 17:13The word of God was preached of Paul
2 Tim. 4:2Preach the word!

       
     
       
               
             
               
             
       
         

In sundry times and in divers manners God spake unto his people. Regardless of the manner in which God revealed His word - directly, appearances, visions, dreams, revelations, or preaching, etc. - the character/quality of the word of God remained the same. It was and is authoritative, perfect, pure, infallible, the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.  In the King James Version only of course.  How do I know the Bible (Ruckman) tells me so.
 
At what point does posting the same thing over and over count as spam?
 
For those who aren't interested in watching this tl;dr rerun, the original may be found here.
 
We have seen so far that the Scriptures have the character of being "given by inspiration of God" and that this character of the Scriptures is true in all generations and languages, not being limited to the autographs or originals.

We'll now take a look at how the Scriptures use the term "Scripture(s)" and take note that they rarely if ever refer to the autographs.

The Scriptures are readable:
  • Mt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
  • Mk 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:
  • Acts 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
  • Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
  • 2Cor 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Observations:
The Scriptures—the entire body of canonical Jewish or Christian writings which are and have been properly regarded by believers as divinely inspired, holy and authoritative—were available for reading in Jesus' day. Jesus' reminded his listeners of the Scriptures that they had read, the Eunuch read the Scriptures. Jesus was not referring to the autographs. The Eunuch did not read the autographs, but he did read the Scriptures—the anthology of Canonical books recognized by a consensus of Spirit filled believers as the very word of God in written form true in all its parts - it is perfect, pure, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice.
Note also that Moses was being read in the times of the Apostles. The original autographs of Moses were not being read. Note also that each synagogue was reading the same book, Moses. Not each synagogue reading their preferred version of Moses, but rather: Moses was being read in the synagogues every sabbath day

The Scriptures are searchable:
  • J 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
  • Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures.
  • Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Observations:
When Jesus commanded his listeners to "search the Scriptures" He was not exhorting them to "search for the autographs" or "search for the original reading", but rather, "search the available Scriptures", the Scriptures recognized as given by inspiration of God by a consensus of Spirit filled believers as the very word of God in written form true in all its parts - it is perfect, pure, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. In the form available in that day.

The Scriptures are profitable:
  • 2Tm 3:16-17 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
  • Act 8:35  Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
  • Acts 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Observations:
The Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness. They can be pointed to, observed, and reasoned out of. Scriptures in this context was not a reference to non-extant autographs, nor were they referring to manuscripts scattered about in caves, trash dumps, museums, private collections, etc. waiting to be compiled. When the men of God in those days preached the Lord Jesus Christ from the Scriptures both the speaker and the listener had a common point of reference the common Scriptures recognized by a consensus of Spirit filled believers as the very word of God in written form (as opposed to unidentifiable writings with questionable authority).

The Scriptures speak today:
  • Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
  • Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
  • Ga 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
  • 1Tm 5:18 For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Observations:
Note that the Scripture "are written", not "were written". "It is written" means that we don't know exactly when the Scriptures were written, but we do know that they are at this very moment (now) in written form available for reading, searching, etc. "It was written" would mean that we don't know exactly when the Scriptures were written, but we do know that at some time in the past they were written. We have no idea whether the Scriptures are still in written form today, nor the condition or state of the Scriptures in the present. Note also that the Scripture says, which is present tense, and not "said", which is past tense. The Scriptures, "the very breath of God", says...! Not the Scriptures said at one time, but we don't know what they say now. 

You can know and understand the Scriptures:
  • Mt 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
  • Mk 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
  • Lk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures
  • J 20:9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Observations:
Jesus' rebuke of his listeners was not because they didn't know the original languages or didn't have possession of the autograph. They were rebuked because they had access to the Scriptures (given by inspiration of God), but neglected them and did not learn from them.

We now know that when we read our New Testaments and encounter the word Scripture or Scriptures we understand that reference is being made to the very breath of God. Timothy possessed the "very breath of God". The Eunoch read the "very breath of God". The Bereans searched "the very breath of God". Jesus read in the synagogue "the very breath of God". None of the above had the autographs!

It is getting very late on this side of the pond, so, unfortunately I must continue at some other time as the Lord permits.



 
admin said:
Mitex said:
Timothy possessed the "very breath of God". The Eunoch read the "very breath of God". The Bereans searched "the very breath of God". Jesus read in the synagogue "the very breath of God". None of the above had the autographs!

From my limited understanding, being that I was not there and that we no longer have the autographs, I am of the humble opinion that Timothy had some autographs. There are two books with his name on them.

But then again, sorry for the interruption.

IMHO Timothy experienced Theopneustos personally.  He could have horded them and not allowed others to copy them, but share them he did and copy them they did.

We have the result in all of our Bibles regardless of translation.

I would concur with your humble opinion.
 
Dear Reader,

The proper understanding of the Scriptures demands that we pay attention to the context. As the old ditty goes: "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text." Without examining the context in which a given portion of Scripture is found, one can easily misappropriate, misuse, misapply or misrepresent a text to support a position that it in fact does not support. Please take note of the following sentence as a simple example: "I read the Bible." Without a context you don't know if "I read (past tense) the Bible a year ago" - past tense, completed action in the past. Or if "I read (present tense) the Bible daily" - present tense, habitual action in this case.

Note first of all the overall tenor of Paul's exhortation to Timothy:
2Tm 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words
2Tm 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost
2Tm 2:2  The things that thou hast heard, the same commit thou to faithful men
2Tm 2:14  Of these thing put them in remembrance
2Tm 2:15  Study to shew thyself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth
2Tm 3:1    In the last days perilous times shall come
2Tm 3:7    Ever learning, never able to come to the knowledge of the truth
2Tm 3:13  Evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse
2Tm 3:14  Continue in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of
2Tm 3:15  From a child thou hast known the Holy Scriptures
2Tm 3:16  All Scripture is profitable for doctrine
2Tm 4:2    Preach the word
2Tm 4:3    Time will come...not endure sound doctrine, heap to themselves
2Tm 4:4    Teachers who shall turn away their ears from the truth

In brief, Timothy, be careful of skeptics, purveyors of doubt, false teachers and a generation of selfish egotistical maniacs who aren't interested in truth, but rather getting their own way. Timothy, stick to that which you have learned from your childhood and that which I'm teaching you—the Scriptures, the written word of God—the very voice of God in written form. You have possessed it, known it since childhood and it speaks to you yet today. Stick with the word of God, preach it, believe it and pass on this doctrine to faithful men.

With this in mind let us now look at the context of the major proof text for the inspiration of the Scriptures:

2Tm 3:15-17 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

As we've seen in our OP and previous posts, the reference to the Scriptures in this context is a reference to the anthology of Canonical books recognized by a consensus of Spirit filled believers as the very word of God in written form true in all its parts—it is perfect, pure, infallible, etc. and the final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Timothy had no reason to fear the skeptics, false teachers and egotists of his day because he had the very words of God in the form that God wanted him to have.

A few very important questions arise in this principle passage:
1) What is the object of inspiration?
2) Was inspiration a completed action in the past?
    2a) Are only the autographs given by inspiration of God?
    2b) Are only the original languages given by inspiration of God?

Answers:
1) Take note that the object of inspiration in this context is Scripture—the entire body of canonical Jewish or Christian writings which are and have been properly regarded by believers as holy and authoritative. Written words are the object of inspiration and not men.

2) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God in this context is a reference to the extant Scriptures that Timothy possessed from his youth and not particularly to the autographs or the original languages. We can safely assume that the Scriptures have the character or quality of being given by inspiration of God regardless of generation or language they are found in. 

There has been some question as to the meaning of this passage in Greek. I don't know Greek, but I am fluent in three languages, having experience in dealing with foreign languages I can generally tell when somebody is trying to pull the wool over my eyes.

Please note a few things:
1) We are told by the scholars on this board that the Greek word in question is θεόπνευστος (theopneustos) supposedly, according to them, an adjective. Ok, interesting, but how does that help an English reader?

2) Scholars are all over the board on the meaning of this word, but breaking down the Greek word literally into two words, we are told that we have God-Breathed. Whether that is the meaning I'll let the reader decide. I do take note that a single word seemingly made up of two distinct words doesn't always give the meaning of that single word separated into two words. For example the Polish word, Wielkanoc; if the reader is astute or acquainted with the Polish language he will note that this singular Polish word is made of two literal words, Wielka Noc (Great Night). However, the singular Polish word, Wielkanoc today means Easter and not "Great-Night". In the past Wielkanoc had the meaning of Passover, where "Great-Night" might of had some implications. 

3) We are also told by genuine scholars that the text in question, in Greek, is either passive voice, which would be indicated in English as "is given (participle) by" or a present tense copular, which would be indicated in English by "All Scripture (noun) is (linking verb) given by inspiration of God (adjectival phrase)".

A review of English grammar for those who have been away from grammar school for any period of time:

The verb be as a present tense copula (linking verb):
The car is painted by the hand of Barry.
Subject - The car
Present tense copula - is
Adjectival phrase starting with the particle painted - painted by the hand of Barry

Meaning: We don't know exactly when the car was painted, but we do know that at this very moment (now) it is painted (it's condition) and that Barry was the one that painted it.

The verb be as a past tense copula (linking verb):
The car was painted by inspiration of Barry.
Subject - The car
Past tense copula - was
Adjectival phrase beginning with the participle painted - painted by the hand of Barry
Meaning: We don't know exactly when the car was painted, but we do know that at some time in the past it was painted. We have no idea whether the car is still painted now, nor the condition or state of the car in the present.

The verb "be" used in present simple passive:
The car is painted by the hand of Barry.
Subject - The car
Simple present passive (is/are + past participle) - is painted
"By" used to introduce the agent - by the hand of Barry

Meaning: The focus is on the action (is painted) and not the person or thing (the hand of Barry) which performed the action. The active would be present simple:

The hand of Barry paints the car.

We use simple present passive like the simple present active, for things that are always true(!), and things that happen all the time, repeatedly, often, sometimes or never, etc.

The verb "be" used in simple past passive:
The car was painted by the hand of Barry.
Subject - The car
Simple past passive (was/were + past participle) - was painted
"By" used to introduce the agent - by the hand of Barry

Meaning: The focus is on the action (was painted) and not the person or thing (the hand of Barry) which performed the action. The active would be past simple:
The hand of Barry painted the car.

We use the simple past passive like the simple past active, for complete finished actions and events.

With this information as a background we should note that genuine Greek scholars seem to be divided as to the meaning of this passage. Note:

Professor Young taking up arguments for the passive:
“The word which for our purpose is of supreme importance is the word theopneustos, translated in the English Bible, ‘inspired of God.’ It is a compound, consisting of the elements theo (God) and pneustos (breathed). Now, it is well to note that the word ends in the three letter -tos. In the Greek language, words which 1) end in -tos and 2) are compound with theo (God) are generally passive in meaning…The true meaning is passive, ‘that which is breathed out by God’ and it is this strange designation that the Apostle here applies to the Old Testament.” Thy Word is Truth, Professor J. Young of Westminster Seminary, Philadelphia, pg. 20-21.

The reader doesn't need to worry too much about these things, but in many languages the endings of words denote such things as singular, plural, masculine, feminine, neuter, case (nominative, accusative. genitive, instrumental, dative, locative, vocative, etc.), tense (past, present, future), voice (passive, active), etc. Hence, the scholars spend countless hours trying to figure out the implication and meaning of the endings. We note that the Greek adjective θεόπνευστος (theopneustos) was highlighted by Professor Young as an indication that our passage should be in the passive voice.

Then there is Dr. Roberson & Professor Vincent taking up the copular argument:
"There is no copula (estin) in the Greek and so one has to insert it either before the kai or after it. If before, as is more natural, then the meaning is: “All scripture (or every scripture) is inspired of God and profitable.” In this form there is a definite assertion of inspiration. That can be true also of the second way, making “inspired of God” descriptive of “every scripture,” and putting estin (is) after kai: “All scripture (or every scripture), inspired of God, is also profitable.” Dr. Roberson, Online Bible Commentary.

"From θεὸς God and πνεῖν to breathe. God-breathed. The word tells us nothing of the peculiar character or limits of inspiration beyond the fact that it proceeds from God. In construction omit is, and rend. as attributive of γραφὴ every divinely-inspired Scripture. Vincent's Word Studies, Online Bible Commentary.

These two distinguished gentleman bring up the argument about adjectives being (1) an attribute (the faithful servant - adj. modifies the noun) or (2) as a predicate (the servant is faithful - adj. modifies the subject).

Frankly, it's all a very tedious argument, but just shows that "the Greek" can be just as murky as the English, if not more! I note here that there are those on this board who profess to know Greek, but have refused to take a position on this point. I'm not sure if that is a sign of wisdom or fear. Either way, the fact is our English versions read:

Geneva For the whole Scripture is giuen by inspiration of God
Bishops All scripture is geuen by inspiration of God
AV        All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
NKJV    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,
RSV      All scripture is inspired by God
NRSV    All scripture is inspired by God
NASB    All Scripture is inspired by God
NIV      All Scripture is God-breathed
ESV      All Scripture is breathed out by God

Notice that all the above versions have the present tense "is" in the verse, leaving the door open for present passive or a present tense copula. None of them have "was", which would indicate a one time even in the past! Interesting indeed. Shall we let Dr. Wallace weigh in?

2) Grammatically: (a) The fact that v 16 is asyndetic (i.e., begins without a conjunction) cannot be due to new subject matter, but to the solemnity of the statement because the author had been discussing the holy writings in v 15. Thus seeing θεόπνευστος as predicate fits in better with the solemn tone established at the beginning of the verse. (b) Since the copula is lacking, it needs to be supplied in English. And the most natural place to supply the equative verb is between the subject and the first word that follows it. It is in fact significant that an author typically leaves out the copula when he assumes the audience knows where it naturally should go. (c) The fact that καί means “and” twelve times as often as it means “also,” as well as the fact that it is unnatural to translate it adverbially as “also” between two adjectives in the same case, argues for a predicate θεόπνευστος. (d) Since the article may be anaphoric when referring back to a synonym, and since the author has been discussing the scriptures with three different synonyms in this context (vv 15, 16, and 4:2), it seems likely that the article is anaphoric in 4:2 when he declares, “Preach the word!” (κήρυξον τὸν λόγον). If the writer had said that only inspired scripture was profitable in 3:16 and then tells his reader(s) to preach all scripture (= “the word”), it might be a misleading statement, for [Timothy] might inadvertently preach some scripture that was not inspired. But since the writer leaves λόγον unqualified apart from the fact that it referred back to γραφή of v 16, it is perhaps likely that he meant to make an assertion about all scripture in v 16, viz., that it is inspired. (e) Finally, what bears on the relation of adj. to noun most directly: In the NT, LXX, in classical and Koine Greek, the overwhelming semantic force of an adj.-noun-adj. construction in an equative clause is that the first adj. will be attributive and the second will be predicate.

No one argues for a simple past passive or a past tense copula. For that would give us:

All Scripture was given by inspiration of God.

Which would force the meaning to that which our scholarly friends on this board and others want it to mean: A one time event completed in the past. That, however, is exactly what the passage doesn't say!

Timothy's Scriptures, all Scripture, is given by inspiration of God. That has direct implications, because to imply that written words are inspired by God is to state in non-equivocal terms that those words are perfect, pure, inerrant, infallible, etc., having the authority of God as if God Himself were speaking to you.

This of course is exactly what many on this board don't want. For then they would be found calling the words of God "an error", "a boo-boo", "a mistake", "wrong", and worse.

Let the reader take comfort in the fact that our extant Scripture is indeed given by inspiration of God. It is the very word of God in English, Spanish, Polish, Greek, or whatever language the Scriptures are found in. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.

The phrase "given by inspiration of God" is therefore not limited to the autograph, or the originals, but to all extant Scripture in any generation or language. You can read the extant Scriptures with the confidence that you are reading the very words of God in the form that God wants you to have.


 
Mitex said:
      I'm going to once again try to bring to the forefront the truth of the Scriptures.

That may be your worthy goal or endeavor, but that does not mean that you actually succeed in your efforts.

The Scriptures do not assert or suggest anything about a "consensus of believers" determining what is the Scriptures.

While "all-or-nothing" reasoning would apply to the Scriptures given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles, it has not been demonstrated that such "all-or-nothing" reasoning can be properly applied to translations made after the completion of the giving of the New Testament Scriptures.

Every word God given to the prophets and apostles was and is 100% pure, but it is not suggested that when fallible men make a mistake in copying, printing, or translating the Scriptures that the mistake of men should be assumed to be "pure."

Those verses (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, Prov. 30:6, Rev. 22:18-19) that warn against adding, taking away from, or diminishing the Scriptures would lead to the scripturally based conclusion that any errors introduced by men in copying, printing, editing, or translating would not be the word of God and that any renderings that diminish the actual meaning of the preserved original language words given to the prophets and apostles should be corrected. 

The Scriptures do not indicate, assert, or teach that when fallible men make a mistake in copying, printing, or translating the Scriptures that it should be considered to be given by inspiration of God because it is found in a printed translation fo the Scriptures.

Mitex, your fallible KJV-only-type reasoning may be properly regarded as incorrect and faulty because it is evidently based on the use of  fallacies [false arguments]. Your KJV-only type assertions indicate use of fallacies such as the fallacy of false dilemma, the fallacy of composition, the fallacy of division, fallacy of begging the question, and perhaps others.  The use of faulty reasoning or fallacies would not bring to the forefront the truth of Scripture.

The fallacy of false dilemma claims that there are only two choices or two alternatives when they are actually more than two.  You seem to suggest that if your fallible claims are not accepted the only alternative is unbelief.

The fallacy of composition is when it is claimed that what is true of some individual renderings or portions of a translation is claimed also to be true of the entire or whole translation.

The fallacy of division is when it is claimed that what is true in a general overall sense for a translation is claimed to be true of every individual rendering in that translation.

Mitex, you evidently would make an exception to your all-or-nothing reasoning for errors that you assume or claim were made by printers, and you would allow printing errors to be corrected.  On the other hand, seeming to use a different measure or standard for translators than for printers, you evidently think that it would be wrong to correct any renderings by translators that would diminish the meaning of the original language words given by inspiration to the prophets and apostles.

Concerning the Roman Catholic accusation about the altering and amending of the early English Bibles, the makers of the KJV in their preface asserted:  "For to whomever was it imputed for a fault (by such as were wise) to go over that which he had done, and to amend it where he saw cause."

Mitex, it is obvious that the makers of the KJV disagreed with your reasoning or claims concerning translations when they asserted:  "if anything be halting, or superflous, or not so agreeable to the original, the same may be corrected and the truth set in place."

The revisers of the pre-1611 English Bibles asserted in their 1611 preface:  "No cause therefore why the word translated should be denied to be the word, or forbidden to be current, notwithstanding that some imperfections and blemishes may be noted in the setting forth of it."

The KJV translators asserted:  "They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, then to be captivated by one, when it may be the other."

 
[quote author=admin]NOONE on this forum (besides atheists and "Biblebeliever") denies that Bibles are Scripture.[/quote]

Fixed. ;)
 
Train_wreck_at_Montparnasse_1895.jpg
 
Dear Reader,

As we noted earlier Scripture, the very word of God in written form, has a purpose:
  • To make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus 2Tm 3:15
  • Profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. 2Tm 3:16-17

Only Scripture, which is given by inspiration of God, is effectual for such purposes—no other kind will do. Recognizing this point we can understand why it was never God's intent for His word to be limited to the autographs. It was and is God's plan for His word to be copied and translated into the various languages of the world so that all men can be made wise unto salvation through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I don’t see one language only as God’s intent and therefore disagree with both Original Language Only and English Only proponents. God didn’t inspire languages he inspired written words within languages. I hope you can see the difference, I do. I don’t see much difference between the false presumption that original languages (supposedly Hebrew and Greek) trump other languages and the false presumption that the English language today trumps all other languages – it is the same error in my mind. My reasoning is as follows:

A. Babel - Man’s ungodly intentions were aided by one universal language, but were thwarted by God dividing the languages.  God said: Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. God deliberately confounded their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech (Ge 11:5-9) so that man would have to do thing’s God’s way and not according his own imagination—man’s way. God has made men “to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us” (Acts 17:25-26). The bounds of their habitation determines the language people speak. God set the bounds so that they might seek the Lord according to God’s way and not man’s way. God was the author of diverse languages and confounded the languages deliberately so that man might seek the Lord. This is a Scriptural principle that leads me to believe that “one language only-ism” is wrong.

B. Gift of tongues (languages), Acts 2:5-11 - When God poured out His Spirit upon the disciples so that they might fulfill the great commission—Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature (Mk 16:15, Mt 28:19)—he gave them the gift of tongues (languages). That would not have been necessary if God’s plan was to preserve and keep His word in the original language, Hebrew. Nor would it have been necessary if everyone in Jerusalem spoke Greek, as some suggest. It wasn't God’s plan to keep His word in the original Greek so that the Church of God might have one universal language as the standard. It is God's plan to make His word available to all men in their language. This leads me to believe that it is God’s will to translate the word of God into the languages of the people of various nations. Look at the nations listed—every nation under heaven. Not just Hebrew and Greek—not just English. God’s intent was never original languages only any more than it was His intent to preserve and keep His word in English only. Every nation under heaven heard the word of God in THEIR language (Acts 2:5). They all heard the wonderful works of God in their own tongue (Acts 2:6). Men heard the word of God, not in some alleged Bible language, but in their own language—every man heard them speak in his own language. And later, how hear we every man in our own tongue (Acts 2:8 )? To me, this shows us God’s intent, at least since the resurrection, was to have His word put into the language (tongue – notice the Scriptural use of synonyms) of every nation. In Acts 2 God gave the gift of tongues, not the gift of interpretation. Had God intended for his word to be in understood by all from one language it seems to me that the Apostles would have all preached in Hebrew and the listeners would have been given the gift of interpretation. That was not the case. Thus, I am fully convinced that preachers in foreign countries should not preach in English, but in the language of the people. That goes for translations as well. The word of God should be translated into the language of the people. A genuine translation from the commonly received text once received by the Church of God as the Scriptures in their language, becomes and is the word of God for that people (language group)—their final authority.

C. Clarity, understandable, common language, 1Cor 14 – Paul addresses “tongues” (languages) directly throughout this chapter. Granted, Paul was dealing with the abuse of the gift of tongues and not translation directly, but I do see some principles concerning the use of languages in the Church of God. You can decide if my reasoning is correct.

1Cor 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself…

I see a principle: Those who think the word of God is only in their preferred language only edify themselves. In other words they are self-centered. God’s intent was to use the gift of languages to edify others—all nations, not just ourselves.

1Cor 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you…

Paul said clearly that if I don’t speak to you in a language that you readily understand then I am no profit to you. The Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, reproof, etc. That is a PRINCIPLE laid out in Scripture. A translation must be profitable to all, not just those with knowledge of the original languages, not just the clergy, who understood Latin, and not just English speaking linguistic racists. 

1Cor 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?

Now, Paul hammers it home. It isn’t good enough to have distinct instruments making uncertain sounds, but each instrument must be played properly. I can play the trumpet—which means I can make the trumpet make a sound, but no one would know what in the world I’m playing! I can play, but certainly not well enough for people to recognize that I’m sounding out the battle cry. Every instrument (language) has its OWN sound, but it must also be tuned and played according to scale. I take that to mean, as applied to my metaphorical point, that the word of God should be written in the language of the people with proper grammar so that they can RECOGNIZE the song (message) being played. Therefore I believe the word of God should be translated into the common languages of every nation.

1Cor 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

That is the proper principle. So that the average plowboy (farmer) can understand the word of God. That was what Tyndale said. What did he mean? So that the lowliest farmer without formal education could understand the word of God. College graduates of every nation have absolutely no understanding at all of Hebrew and Greek. Highly educated men and women from all nations struggle to hold even a basic conversation in English, and that among those who studied English. Where that leaves the average plowboy (farmer) is anyone’s guess. Therefore, I don't believe the word of God should remain trapped in unknown languages called original by some, nor do I believe the word of God once translated can never be updated linguistically in that language. Languages grow old, become archaic and obsolete. Have you ever tried to read Wycliffe or Tyndale without the modern "updating"?

1Cor 14:10-11 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.

To keep a familiar archaic word and neglect the meaning of the word would be an error. Words change meanings over time. Of course words are important, but so are their MEANINGS. Balance! Not just words, nor just meaning, but BOTH. Don’t get so hung up on words that you forget the MEANING, don’t get so hung up on meaning that you forget the words. BALANCE! An old English saying: Say what you mean, mean what you say. These are proper principles to guide us in translating and updating.

1Cor 14:12 seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

Not just languages learned my seminarians. Not just Latin learned by the clergy, Not just the English of English speakers. But seek to edify the entire Church of God in her various languages.

1Cor 14:18-19 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

Better five CLEAR words than 10 thousand UNCLEAR words! Better one sentence written in accordance with proper grammar and vocabulary than 10 thousand sentences out of sync with correct grammar structure. We want the words of God to be in tune giving a distinct sound that all men may understand. We want to make a good Bible better. Better in what way? By tuning it up, tightening and replacing the warn out strings, putting it into scale. Making sure the words play a clear recognizable sound. In this sense, the autographs were made better when copied and translated so that men of all nations might have access to the word of God.

A few points to remember:
  • Timothy did not possess God's finger written original (Ex 31:18), God's finger written copy (Ex 34:1), Moses' original copy (Ex 24:1), Joshua's original copy of Moses (Josh 8:32), Joshua's original edited edition (Joshua 24:26), Solomon's original Proverbs, nor the edition Hezekiah's men copied out with additions, etc.
  • Timothy had the Scriptures from his youth (2Tm 3:15), he did not have Paul's, Luke's or Peter's letters from his youth. Timothy did not possess 1 & 2 Timothy from his youth.
  • Timothy did not possess the autograph, but what he did possess and know from his youth was a copy or translation of the Scriptures at least several generations, if not 1000-3000 years, removed from the autograph.
  • Timothy's Holy Scriptures, that Paul said were "given by inspiration of God", were copied and or translated by fallible men. Yet, Paul clearly said that they were "given by inspiration of God.
  • Timothy's Holy Scriptures (copy or translation) which he knew from his youth were given by inspiration of God—God's word in written form, thus perfect, pure, infallible, the final authority in all matters of faith and practice, true in all its parts (every word), trustworthy, etc.
  • The term Scripture is not the word of God because it is accepted by the people of God, but rather, it is accepted by the people of God because it is the word of God. It is axiomatic that born again Spirit filled believers will accept and believe the word of God.
  • Paul did not have to define Timothy's Holy Scriptures—given by inspiration of God—because it was common knowledge among a consensus of Spirit filled believers what the exact limits were of the Canon of Scriptures. Don't let the pundits derail the reader on this salient point.
  • Inspiration is not a one and done concept as popularized by seminarian traditionalists. The Scriptures were the "breath of God", if I may borrow the seminarian term, long before Abraham believed God and will be the "breath of God" well into eternity.
  • Honest Spirit filled copyists and translators are not in danger of the plagues found in Revelation, nor are they in danger of reproof or being found a liar as one kibitzer would have us believe. Dt. 4:2, Pr 30,6 & Rev 22:18, etc. have nothing to do with honest translating or making copies of the Scriptures. However, those who fraudulently add to or take away from the Scriptures as apparently some copyists/translators did in the "oldest and best manuscripts" may find themselves at the brunt of Divine censure.

Moses added unto God's finger written copy, Joshua added unto to Moses' copy, Hezekiah's men edited and made additions to Solomon's Proverbs—none of those men are in danger of Divine rebuke, nor are honest Spirit filled copyists and translators who may legitimately add or subtract from original jot and tittle words counts.

God's plan is to have His word copied and translated into the common languages of all nations. Valid copies and translations are every wit the word of God as the originals. Valid copies and translations are just as "given by inspiration of God", "inspired by God", or "God-breathed" as the autographs. Valid copies and translations in our language is God's authority to us. Please don't let the critics and skeptics rob you of words, phrases and verses in your extant Scriptures. Believe the extant Scriptures as if God Himself were speaking to you in your language.




 
The train is getting longer.

The wizard from behind the curtain is wildly pulling the levers on the engine, but none are labled stop, only forward full speed.

Cars are filled with unrelated foggy gibberish.

"Better five CLEAR words than 10 thousand UNCLEAR words!"

Agreed.

You have provided at least 10 thousand unclear words with double and triple meanings complete with unique private interpretations.

Where are the clear words?
 
Mitex said:
Dear Reader,

As we noted earlier Scripture, the very word of God in written form, has a purpose:

Looks like Mitex has graduated summa cum laude from the Will Kinney and Lou Martuneac School of Posting:  Since people are mocking your long, ponderous meanderings rather than actually interacting with them, that must mean they have to be reposted! Repeat as necessary.
 
Ransom said:
Mitex said:
Dear Reader,

As we noted earlier Scripture, the very word of God in written form, has a purpose:

Looks like Mitex has graduated summa cum laude from the Will Kinney and Lou Martuneac School of Posting:  Since people are mocking your long, ponderous meanderings rather than actually interacting with them, that must mean they have to be reposted! Repeat as necessary.

I thought Hreb Evans was back!
 
Ransom said:
Mitex said:
Dear Reader,

As we noted earlier Scripture, the very word of God in written form, has a purpose:

Looks like Mitex has graduated summa cum laude from the Will Kinney and Lou Martuneac School of Posting:  Since people are mocking your long, ponderous meanderings rather than actually interacting with them, that must mean they have to be reposted! Repeat as necessary.

Job 21:3  Suffer me that I may speak; and after that I have spoken, mock on.
 
He was the Wizard of Oz, now Job?

Here's some words from John Gill

"Suffer me that I may speak,.... To go on with his discourse, without any interruption, until he had finished it; as he before craves their attention, here he entreats their patience to hear him out, as well as to give him leave to begin; they might by their gestures seem as if they were breaking up and departing; or they raised a tumultuous clamour, to hinder his proceeding to reply; or he might fear, that if he was allowed to speak, they would break in upon him before he had done, as they had already; or "bear me", as several of the Jewish commentators explain the phrase; though what he was going to say might sit heavy upon their minds, and be very burdensome, grating, and uneasy to them; yet he entreats they would endure it patiently, until he had made an end of speaking:"

Are you comparing yourself to Job? I think that is a stretch. A hill too high to climb.

Job was participating in Theopneustos as the conduit for God's Word's.

Could it be that you think you are also participating in Theopneustos. I think I detect KJVO talking points.

Double Theopneustos?

 
Its interesting to note that Mitex appeals to the gift of tongues in the transmitting of God's Word and I'd about bet every dollar I've got that he's a hard cessationist that believes such gifts died off with the apostles. What irony.
 
Why does Mitex copy and paste junk from his web site?

If we had the tiniest interest we could read his mental gymnastics there.

On the other hand it's all in good fun and sure generates alota laughs.

Also get to see new KJVO arguments and talking points. Are there really any new ones?

Who else comes to mind that spams-alot?

https://brentandjaniceriggs.wordpress.com/

Mother lode of KJVO talking points.

Check this out on his web site.

This entry was posted in Version Debate and tagged autograph, AV, Bible, Brent Riggs, copies, Copy, Fundamentalist, King James Only, KJV, KJV Only, KJVO Debate, Original language, Original Language Only, Ruckmanism, Scripture, Scriptures, Standard, translation, Translations, Version Debate, versions. Bookmark the permalink.


IMHO he is trying to drive traffic to his blog. Well he got me to view his logical fog.


Correction
My bad. It seems Mitex first posts his musings here and then duplicates it to his blog.
It just looks like he was coping and pasting. My apologies.
Well he sure fooled me.
 
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