Manifestations of Fundamentalism - BJU and Gothard Rated Low, HAC Rated Lowest

[illinoisguy]

Spiritual Influences: Fundamentalism and Its Many Manifestations — Community Bible Church

Creation, Fall, and Redemption conspire to make discernment both possible and necessary. The imago Dei bestows the capacity to bring a God-consciousness to every thought, an ability obscured by the noetic effects of sin and restored only by the quickening of God’s Spirit. By natu

cbctrenton.com

"Weird Comes in Many Forms - The quest for safe spaces sent many Christian teens and their parents and pastors to packed sports arenas around the country where rapt audiences imbibed the legalistic teachings of Bill Gothard in his Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts seminar (Younger readers may know Gothard’s name from the recent Duggar documentary, 'Happy Shiny People'). . . .

"The [BJU] of today is not the school it was four decades ago having made many changes for the better. But before that the first three presidents of Bob Jones (all named Bob Jones) and their institution had a difficult record regarding racial issues, and it also attracted Fundamentalists of various types, all bringing their unique perspective to the 'Fortress of the Faith' as it was called. A pastor friend who’s an alumnus of BJ (and one of those ‘finest Christian people’ I mentioned), has told me that he didn’t know about the ‘weirdness’ in Fundamentalism until he encountered fellow students at the college.

"But Bob Jones was downright liberal compared to Hyles-Anderson College in Crown Point, IN, operated under the auspices of First Baptist Church of Hammond, IN and its infamous pastor, Jack Hyles. HAC represents a strain of Fundamentalism with important differences from the BJ version, including devaluation of actual education (HAC is not accredited and would undoubtedly be rejected by any regional accrediting agency), an emphasis on numerical growth as a barometer for a pastor’s and church’s spiritual fervency and, in his later years Hyles’s insistence that the King James Bible is the only inspired version of God’s Word. The church growth theme was seen in Hyles boasting that his church had for decades the largest Sunday School in the world (it may well have been for all I know as it was HUGE), owing largely to bringing busloads of children from in and around Chicago, relentlessly promoting special days and revival meetings with the zeal of P.T. Barnum, sending an army of people into surrounding neighborhoods for weekly ‘soul willing’ [sic] where professions of faith were secured using Hyles’s ‘easy believism’ approach to evangelism ('Repeat this prayer after me'), etc. . . .

"My high school friend/evangelist has become a staple item at conferences sponsored by the Sword of the Lord of which he’s a board member, and his itinerary has been full every week over decades with speaking engagements at churches all over America. But his ministry and the foundation on which it has been built is far from biblically faithful, has given Baptists in our country a bad name, and so I’m grateful that God rescued me from those influences.

"The late Jack Hyles spawned thousands of ‘preacher boys’ from his college who copy his unbiblical preaching and leadership. Hyles was mired in moral scandal in the last years of his ministry. His hand-picked successor and son-in-law was released from prison last year having served eleven years due to his ‘relationship’ with a 16-year-old girl he had counseled and groomed.

​

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

But Bob Jones was downright liberal compared to Hyles-Anderson College in Crown Point, IN, operated under the auspices of First Baptist Church of Hammond, IN and its infamous pastor, Jack Hyles.

Growing up, I knew fully too well about everything Bob Jones related, but I must agree with this guy’s assessment of BJU being “liberal” compared to Hyles-Anderson. I had never heard of HAC before coming on this forum, but it does seem the old HAC was even more extreme than the old BJU—something I once thought nearly impossible.

 

[abcaines]

All this and we wonder why American Churchianity has so little relevance in our culture.

 

[ALAYMAN]

Growing up, I knew fully too well about everything Bob Jones related, but I must agree with this guy’s assessment of BJU being “liberal” compared to Hyles-Anderson. I had never heard of HAC before coming on this forum, but it does seem the old HAC was even more extreme than the old BJU—something I once thought nearly impossible.

It just depends upon who’s standard you’re judging by, and if it is by the average American non-Christian barometer, there’s absolutely no difference between the two. And though I have what I believe to be legitimate criticisms of Hyles Anderson (some the same as this author), I find a lot of these critiques that smack of “I thank thee that I’m not as this sinner and publican.”

 

[AverageJoe]

It just depends upon who’s standard you’re judging by, and if it is by the average American non-Christian barometer, there’s absolutely no difference between the two. And though I have what I believe to be legitimate criticisms of Hyles Anderson (some the same as this author), I find a lot of these critiques that smack of “I thank thee that I’m not as this sinner and publican.”

I'm not so sure about your assessment. BJU used to be considered quite conservative and legalistic. HAC was much, much more than this! It was downright cultic in it's approach to everything. Hyles went from the "King James is preserved," to "the King James Bible is INSPIRED." I hate to tell everybody...no translation is inspired..they're ALL preserved, contrary to the IFB, KJVO beliefs that it's the perfect, inspired Worda Gawd! The constant attacks on the newer translations by nuts like the KJVO crowd damage not only the mission of the church, but, the prestige of Christianity as a whole Granted, there are some translations that aren't so good, but, even people like Rice used something other than the KJV. Hyles, his son, and his son-in-law all were cut from the same cloth and didn't practice what they preached. I have a friend who is friends with Dave Hyles and swears that Dave is reformed and right with God. If he is, good, if he's not, that's between him and God. I don't like or trust Dave Hyles. I never will unless he could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's what he claims to be. He's claimed it before, and he's proven himself to be a liar.
The constant trying to make BJU or HAC seem worse than the other has been long-standing, and it's not helped either school. They're both damaged goods.

 

[Sherryh]

I spend 9 years at hac my husband was on security and knew all the trash. Looking forward I would not send anyone to the college....They should have cleaned house with many staff members not sure why it wasn't done. Many staff have left ...
I'm not bitter I'm just looking at situations asking why wasn't something done? The pastor now is a good man but not sure what hes able to do. The Duggar program is a cult, and I would never watch it. I was told if a woman wears pants shes on her way to hell. Where does this come from? My husband did not like pants on women I honored that but he's gone and I'm wearing pants. My thoughts if you're saying anything about them you're probably living a lie...which I saw many speakers doing.........my thoughts this morning

 

[Gringo]

I spend 9 years at hac my husband was on security and knew all the trash. Looking forward I would not send anyone to the college....They should have cleaned house with many staff members not sure why it wasn't done. Many staff have left ...
I'm not bitter I'm just looking at situations asking why wasn't something done? The pastor now is a good man but not sure what hes able to do. The Duggar program is a cult, and I would never watch it. I was told if a woman wears pants shes on her way to hell. Where does this come from? My husband did not like pants on women I honored that but he's gone and I'm wearing pants. My thoughts if you're saying anything about them you're probably living a lie...which I saw many speakers doing.........my thoughts this morning

.
In 2023, do churches still make an issue of pants or are you speaking of years ago, in the last century - 70's and 80's?
I find it hard to believe that people, today, would be concentrating on something so silly as pants on women. By the way, I wish you peace and strength in dealing with the loss of your husband.

I can't help but feel that comparing BJU with Hells Anderson is like comparing Pop star Madonna to Opera Star Jessye Norman. At least, that's how I remember it.
.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I'm not so sure about your assessment. BJU used to be considered quite conservative and legalistic. HAC was much, much more than this! It was downright cultic in it's approach to everything. Hyles went from the "King James is preserved," to "the King James Bible is INSPIRED." I hate to tell everybody...no translation is inspired..they're ALL preserved, contrary to the IFB, KJVO beliefs that it's the perfect, inspired Worda Gawd! The constant attacks on the newer translations by nuts like the KJVO crowd damage not only the mission of the church, but, the prestige of Christianity as a whole Granted, there are some translations that aren't so good, but, even people like Rice used something other than the KJV. Hyles, his son, and his son-in-law all were cut from the same cloth and didn't practice what they preached. I have a friend who is friends with Dave Hyles and swears that Dave is reformed and right with God. If he is, good, if he's not, that's between him and God. I don't like or trust Dave Hyles. I never will unless he could prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that he's what he claims to be. He's claimed it before, and he's proven himself to be a liar.
The constant trying to make BJU or HAC seem worse than the other has been long-standing, and it's not helped either school. They're both damaged goods.

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you that there were substantive differences between the two, but that the average non-Christian person who looked at all of their eccentricities, standards, and general conservative Christian beliefs would lump them in the same basket of crazy (to them). And more to the point, those "cultic" differences that may have distinguished BoJo from Hyles would be ultimately gagging at a gnat and swallowing a camel IMNSHO. Legalism, at the end of the day, is still legalism so any effort to make one a knight in shining armor in comparison to the other comes off to me as censoriousness and making a distinction without a difference.

 

[fishinnut]

Just a few of my own thoughts..,

• The author starts with the pic of cows like he is doing sacred cow tipping, which he borrowed from the now pastor of the Plymouth, MI church he says "yikes" about because he had been a member when it was Temple BC.
• He also seems to be fixated & hyper critical of the well known ministry personalities, institutions and methods of the IFB.
• As far as revival meetings at FBCH, his word-of-mouth learned history education is lacking.
• Instead of being thankful for how God has lead him to this time in his life, he seems to enjoy throwing rocks at glass houses of the past preachers, ministries and influences that were seeking to serve their generation then. The song "Jesus lead me all the way" might bring about some thankfulness.
• If he did not like the way ministry & education was done in the past then he would be better served to never do it that way and just follow God leading in his life & ministry.
• I for one am glad that he is seeking to serve the Lord for such a time as this, but feel like I could have had a better morning if I had not read his little diatribe.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

Yeah, I'm agreeing with you that there were substantive differences between the two, but that the average non-Christian person who looked at all of their eccentricities, standards, and general conservative Christian beliefs would lump them in the same basket of crazy (to them).

Over the years, I’ve met several non-church/non-Christian folks who had the perception of Liberty U being “too strict” and/or “legalistic.” I was always shocked when I heard this because LU was considered the land of “liberal Christianity” by folks from my BJU-leaning church.

 

[RodneyL]

This is an interesting comparison. In the early 80s, I participated in the preacher boy contests and BJU and ended up going to college in 1985 at HAC. I thought they were always pretty close in their conservatism, with each having differences that offset the other. Not sure how they are today...I'm totally out of the IFB cult so I don't keep up much.

 

[Starlifter]

Now that America and the world have practically been freed from the chains of cultic fundamentalism, we will certainly be blessed with true revival, real holiness and sincere religion.
Since the bondage of legalistic fundies have all but been snuffed out, I don't even have to go soul winning anymore...the mega churches have reached all the sinners before I could even darken their doors!

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

This is an interesting comparison. In the early 80s, I participated in the preacher boy contests and BJU and ended up going to college in 1985 at HAC. I thought they were always pretty close in their conservatism, with each having differences that offset the other. Not sure how they are today...I'm totally out of the IFB cult so I don't keep up much.

The folks I know who graduated from BJU back in the 70s and 80s consider today’s BJU compromised and “liberal.” I’ve found most of the folks who graduated from BJU in the 90s and beyond consider the changes welcomed and needed, so there’s definitely a generational difference. (I have no idea if HAC has changed.)

 

[Sherryh]

.
In 2023, do churches still make an issue of pants or are you speaking of years ago, in the last century - 70's and 80's?
I find it hard to believe that people, today, would be concentrating on something so silly as pants on women. By the way, I wish you peace and strength in dealing with the loss of your husband.

I can't help but feel that comparing BJU with Hells Anderson is like comparing Pop star Madonna to Opera Star Jessye Norman. At least, that's how I remember it.
.

I was just told by some ladies that I was wrong for wearing pants. I told them to prove it they just looked at me. I'm a peacemaker not trouble maker. I have to stand before God not them......Thank you for your prayers

 

[ALAYMAN]

This is an interesting comparison. In the early 80s, I participated in the preacher boy contests and BJU and ended up going to college in 1985 at HAC. I thought they were always pretty close in their conservatism, with each having differences that offset the other. Not sure how they are today...I'm totally out of the IFB cult so I don't keep up much.

IFB cult? Are you implying ALL or most IFBs are cultish?

 

[ALAYMAN]

Over the years, I’ve met several non-church/non-Christian folks who had the perception of Liberty U being “too strict” and/or “legalistic.” I was always shocked when I heard this because LU was considered the land of “liberal Christianity” by folks from my BJU-leaning church.

Exactly. Legalism often is a charge of nonbelievers AND believers alike to refer to religious people that are to the right of wherever we stand. In the case of BoJo and HAC there are legitimate evidences of some forms of legalistic mindsets.

 

[Dr. Huk-N-Duck]

IFB cult? Are you implying ALL or most IFBs are cultish?

I caught that too…and although I choose to attend an IFB church, I don’t consider myself cultish or traditionally IFB. If someone wants to slap the label of neo-fundamentalist, I guess I might possibly be one, although even that “neo” label seems to be vague.

 

[RodneyL]

IFB cult? Are you implying ALL or most IFBs are cultish?

IFB cult? Are you implying ALL or most IFBs are cultish?

Sorry, let me clarify. No, I don't feel all IFBs are cults but I do believe a lot of the IFBs from the 70s and 80s when I was growing up were "man focused" and built around a sense of control people. I would consider myself very conservative from a Biblical perspective, but I'm glad there are a lot of IFBs who have worked through the unbiblical legalism that permeated past churches.

 

[abcaines]

I'm glad there are a lot of IFBs who have worked through the unbiblical legalism that permeated past churches.

I've repeated this numerous times but here it goes again...

I was discipled in the IFB environment while in the Navy during the 80s. After I got out, I moved to California and got involved in a baptist church which was more akin to John Macarthur philosophy. After moving to the Pacific Northwest, I was hard-pressed to find a baptist church that wasn't on life support. I ended up going to a more liberal congregation (Free Methodist) for a year. After I got fed up with that I began to look toward going back to my IFB roots. There were a few of those churches in the area. However, I ended up with a Calvary Chapel. It blew me away. It was closer to IFB theology than the baptist church in California! I've been with CC almost 25 years. I'm not looking to leave it anytime soon.

 

[ALAYMAN]

I caught that too…and although I choose to attend an IFB church, I don’t consider myself cultish or traditionally IFB. If someone wants to slap the label of neo-fundamentalist, I guess I might possibly be one, although even that “neo” label seems to be vague.

I have not yet turned away from, nor am I ashamed of any of the properly understood components of the IFB nomenclature. I’ve found that most people’s criticism of IFBs stem from a narrow view of a certain subsect of that (Indy-fundy) world and experiences which don’t represent the broader demographic.