Japan is Evil

[biscuit1953]

It seems the US government was involved in both instances. The Everlasting Covenant still stands. Israel is still the apple of God's eye.

 

[Ransom]

The Everlasting Covenant still stands.

You mean the circumcision one?

 

[illinoisguy]

I don't see the connection between Pearl Harbor and Zionism, but let's skip that for now. My question is, how come Zionists do not emphasize the ongoing continuance, in this dispensation, of all the statutes that were described in the Old Testament as "everlasting."

The Abrahamic Covenant (which was conditional on Israel's obedience, Genesis 17:9-14) was described as "everlasting" (the Hebrew word olam), in Genesis 17:7-8.

Exodus 40:15 described the Aaronic priesthood as "everlasting" (olam), so why did God abolish it, and shouldn't we be trying to bring it back?

Leviticus 16:34, the priestly ceremony of atonement, involving a scapegoat, was to be "everlasting" (olam).

Exodus 29:9, the Aaronic priesthood was to be a "perpetual statute." The Hebrew word for "perpetual" is olam.

Exodus 31:16 states that observance of the Jewish sabbath was to be "perpetual" (olam).

Leviticus 3:17, the goat offering was to be continued as a "perpetual statute" (olam). Likewise in Leviticus 24:9.

Numbers 19:21, the sprinkling of the water of separation was a "perpetual statute" (olam).

According to Vine's Expository Dictionary, olam can mean "into the indefinite future." For instance, in Exodus 21:6 it is stated that the servant will serve his master "for ever" (olam). In Deuteronomy 23:3, Ammonites and Moabites were barred from the congregation of the Lord "for ever" (olam).

I believe that we are putting too much weight on the word olam when we apply it to the land promise to Israel, which was always described as a conditional promise.

 

[biscuit1953]

I don't see the connection between Pearl Harbor and Zionism, but let's skip that for now. My question is, how come Zionists do not emphasize the ongoing continuance, in this dispensation, of all the statutes that were described in the Old Testament as "everlasting."

The Abrahamic Covenant (which was conditional on Israel's obedience, Genesis 17:9-14) was described as "everlasting" (the Hebrew word olam), in Genesis 17:7-8.

Exodus 40:15 described the Aaronic priesthood as "everlasting" (olam), so why did God abolish it, and shouldn't we be trying to bring it back?

Leviticus 16:34, the priestly ceremony of atonement, involving a scapegoat, was to be "everlasting" (olam).

Exodus 29:9, the Aaronic priesthood was to be a "perpetual statute." The Hebrew word for "perpetual" is olam.

Exodus 31:16 states that observance of the Jewish sabbath was to be "perpetual" (olam).

Leviticus 3:17, the goat offering was to be continued as a "perpetual statute" (olam). Likewise in Leviticus 24:9.

Numbers 19:21, the sprinkling of the water of separation was a "perpetual statute" (olam).

According to Vine's Expository Dictionary, olam can mean "into the indefinite future." For instance, in Exodus 21:6 it is stated that the servant will serve his master "for ever" (olam). In Deuteronomy 23:3, Ammonites and Moabites were barred from the congregation of the Lord "for ever" (olam).

I believe that we are putting too much weight on the word olam when we apply it to the land promise to Israel, which was always described as a conditional promise.

I don't see the connection between Pearl Harbor and Zionism, but let's skip that for now. My question is, how come Zionists do not emphasize the ongoing continuance, in this dispensation, of all the statutes that were described in the Old Testament as "everlasting."
Because the statutes under the Mosaic Covenant were not “everlasting.” They were types and shadows of the fulfillment of Christ (Heb 10:1, 11-14). Circumcision was perpetual to the physical descendants of Abraham. The circumcision in relation to the Church is spiritual (Col 2:11-12).
The Abrahamic Covenant (which was conditional on Israel's obedience, Genesis 17:9-14) was described as "everlasting" (the Hebrew word olam), in Genesis 17:7-8.
The Covenant given to Abraham was not conditional but “everlasting” when it came to the possession of the land. The conditional covenant you are referring to is called the Palestinian Covenant found in Deut 29:1-30:20. God promised to bless them by allowing them to remain in the land with physical healing among other blessings as long as they were obedient. If they were disobedient, God would “root them out of their land in anger...and cast them into another land" (Deut 29:28).
Exodus 40:15 described the Aaronic priesthood as "everlasting" (olam), so why did God abolish it, and shouldn't we be trying to bring it back?
It was abolished because the Mosaic Covenant was abolished. It was everlasting as long as the Mosaic Covenant was in effect. The priesthood of Christ superseded the Levitical priesthood (Heb 7:11-24).
Leviticus 16:34, the priestly ceremony of atonement, involving a scapegoat, was to be "everlasting" (olam).
The scapegoat under the Mosaic Covenant was fulfilled in Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:24).
Exodus 29:9, the Aaronic priesthood was to be a "perpetual statute." The Hebrew word for "perpetual" is olam.
The Aaronic priesthood under the Mosaic Covenant was superseded and fulfilled in Jesus Christ (Heb 7:11-24).
Exodus 31:16 states that observance of the Jewish sabbath was to be "perpetual" (olam).
It was under the Mosaic Law. Sabbath means “rest” not “seventh.” The Christians’ “Sabbath” or day of rest is “Sunday” given to us by the apostles after the resurrection of Christ (Acts 16:1; 1 Cor 16:1). Christians are under no obligation to keep the Sabbath given as a “sign” to Israel under the Mosaic Covenant (Ex 31:17; Col 2:16).
Leviticus 3:17, the goat offering was to be continued as a "perpetual statute" (olam). Likewise in Leviticus 24:9.
Under the Mosaic Covenant.
Numbers 19:21, the sprinkling of the water of separation was a "perpetual statute" (olam).
Under the Mosaic Covenant.
According to Vine's Expository Dictionary, olam can mean "into the indefinite future." For instance, in Exodus 21:6 it is stated that the servant will serve his master "for ever" (olam). In Deuteronomy 23:3, Ammonites and Moabites were barred from the congregation of the Lord "for ever" (olam).
The word must be used in the proper context. Some things were perpetual as long as that system was in place. The Mosaic Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant.
I believe that we are putting too much weight on the word olam when we apply it to the land promise to Israel, which was always described as a conditional promise.
The possession of the land promised to Abraham was “everlasting.”

Amos 9:14 I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel, and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them; they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine, and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
Amos 9:15 I will plant them on their land, and they shall never again be uprooted out of the land that I have given them,” says the LORD your God.

The prophecies concerning the regathering of the Jewish people to their own land never to be driven out again has never been fulfilled until the present day. You don’t have to be a “Dispensationalist” to realize that God isn’t through with the Jews as a nation. Even Charles Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul saw no reason to spiritualize these prophecies of the physical regathering of the Jews. I take you once again to Revelation chapter 20 where the Bible clearly teaches there will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth with no hint of it being a metaphor. If it is then the lake of fire is also a metaphor.

I don’t fully understand all the details of Bible prophecy any more than you do but I think you can understand why many Christians believe Israel is to be distinguished from the Church. I can see how your side can come to certain conclusions but not to the extent you do. It is a subject that can’t be reconciled by everyone.

 

[illinoisguy]

I think you can understand why many Christians believe Israel is to be distinguished from the Church.

No, I don't understand. "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek . . . And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:26-29.

"At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel . . . For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us." Ephesians 2:12-14.

Your admission that the Palestinian Covenant was conditional confirms what I have been saying all along. Modern-day descendants of the ancient Israelites (who, after thousands of years of intermarriage and mixing, would include most people living today) do not have a divine title deed to the land of Canaan.

The verses I cited, as examples of "everlasting" and "perpetual" statutes, are disregarded by you because they are under covenants which were abrogated in the New Testament. Likewise, the land promises of the Abrahamic Covenant are abrogated (Matthew 21:33-43, Hebrews 11:13-16), having previously been completely fulfilled (Joshua 21:43-45, Nehemiah 9).

Acts 15:15-17 states that Amos 9:14-15 was fulfilled by the receiving of Gentile believers into the Kingdom of God. This has been pointed out before in this forum.

 

[Ransom]

The Covenant given to Abraham was not conditional but “everlasting” when it came to the possession of the land. The conditional covenant you are referring to is called the Palestinian Covenant found in Deut 29:1-30:20.

Oh, come on. According to this logic, the promises of land--literally the same territory given to the same people--were simultaneously conditional and unconditional.

This is the nonsense Dispensationalist assumptions lead you to. This is because although you claim to be consistently literal in your hermeneutic, you consistently ignore the New Testament use of the Old. In plain, literal language, it says that Christ himself is the heir of the Abrahamic promises, and that we Christians are heirs with him. The descendants of Abraham after the flesh rejected their promised Messiah. They were cut off, until such a time that some of them might repent and bow to Jesus, the true king of the Jews. Outside of Christ, God's good promises given to their forefathers entitle ethnic Jews to nothing.

You consistently ignore this fact or handwave it away, because your system cannot account for the truth. You know it is true, but you are preuppositionally committed to a hermeneutic that all but ignores the present reality of the church of Jesus Christ and its place in redemptive history, blasphemously relegating it to a "parenthesis" in God's plan. It's a disgrace.

 

[Ransom]

I take you once again to Revelation chapter 20 where the Bible clearly teaches there will be a thousand year reign of Christ on the earth with no hint of it being a metaphor. If it is then the lake of fire is also a metaphor.

It is a metaphor. Fire is heated gas and particulate matter. It doesn't pool into lakes. Whatever hell may or may not be made of, it is a place of torment, and "lake of fire" tells us something about what it is like, in vivid imagery we can easily understand and picture in our minds. Imagine drowning in a huge sea of fire.

You make the same categorical error many others do: you confuse saying whether or not a particular passage of language is figurative, with saying whether or not it is true. It's like you're saying, if I claim a basketball is round, I must be denying it's orange.

Before you go criticizing other people for interpreting language figuratively, you need to go back to high school and learn something about figurative language.

 

[biscuit1953]

No, I don't understand. "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." Galatians 3:7
We are the spiritual descendants of Abraham, not the physical.
"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus . . . There is neither Jew nor Greek . . . And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galatians 3:26-29.
That is true of the Church. Christians are one in Christ but that doesn’t do away with male or female or racial and social distinctions. Spiritual equality doesn’t mean sameness.
"At that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel . . . For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us." Ephesians 2:12-14.
That is true of the Church.
Your admission that the Palestinian Covenant was conditional confirms what I have been saying all along. Modern-day descendants of the ancient Israelites (who, after thousands of years of intermarriage and mixing, would include most people living today) do not have a divine title deed to the land of Canaan.
One of the greatest miracles of today is the preservation of the Jewish race. Jews have never lost their racial identity though scattered around the world for centuries. DNA is a powerful reality and the study done by the National Academy of Science in 2000 only confirms that present day Jews are genetically related no matter where they are scattered around the world.

Recently published research in the field of molecular genetics—the study of DNA sequences—indicates that Jewish populations of the various Diaspora communities have retained their genetic identity throughout the exile. Despite large geographic distances between the communities and the passage of thousands of years, far removed Jewish communities share a similar genetic profile. This research confirms the common ancestry and common geographical origin of world Jewry.

Jewish men from communities which developed in the Near East—Iran, Iraq, Kurdistan, Yemen—and European Jews have very similar, almost identical genetic profiles.

“Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.”
(M.F. Hammer, Proc. Nat’l Academy of Science, May 9, 2000)

The only exceptions were among Ethiopian Jews (Black Jews) indicating they were Jewish proselytes.

Jewish DNA | Genetics

Jewish DNA - new genetic evidence for common Jewish ancestry

www.simpletoremember.com

The verses I cited, as examples of "everlasting" and "perpetual" statutes, are disregarded by you because they are under covenants which were abrogated in the New Testament. Likewise, the land promises of the Abrahamic Covenant are abrogated (Matthew 21:33-43, Hebrews 11:13-16), having previously been completely fulfilled (Joshua 21:43-45, Nehemiah 9).
Whether the area has been fulfilled (I don’t believe it has) the unconditional promise of an everlasting possession is still in effect.
Acts 15:15-17 states that Amos 9:14-15 was fulfilled by the receiving of Gentile believers into the Kingdom of God. This has been pointed out before in this forum.
Amos 9:14-15 is a very specific promise that the Jews will return to the land from which they were scattered the second time where they will never be driven out again. Isaiah 11:11 says the they would come from all over the world and the islands of the sea. Jeremiah 16:15 says God would bring them back from the north and all the lands, not just Babylon. John MacArthur explains Acts 15:15-17 this way.

“James quotes Amos’s prophecy (9:11-12) of the millennial kingdom to prove that Gentile salvation was not contrary to God’s planfor Israel. In fact, the kingdom God’s messengers will announce salvation to the Gentiles (Zech 8:20-23). Gentiles...called by my name. James’s point is that Amos makes no mention of Gentiles becoming Jewish proselytes. If Gentiles can be saved without becoming Jews in the kingdom, there is no need for Gentiles to become proselytes in the present age.”

No matter how one looks at it there is no need to spiritualize away the miraculous regathering of the Jewish people and the one thousand year reign of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ransom]

No, I don't understand.

Correct.

We are the spiritual descendants of Abraham, not the physical.

Asked and answered. *whoosh*

One of the greatest miracles of today is the preservation of the Jewish race. J

Asked and answered. Theologically irrelevant.

Whether the area has been fulfilled (I don’t believe it has)

Asked and answered. The you don't believe what the Old Testament says about itself.

Amos 9:14-15 is a very specific promise that the Jews will return to the land from which they were scattered the second time where they will never be driven out again

Asked and answered. You fail to "rightly divide" James's use of this passage in Acts 15, as you do every time the New Testament takes a prophecy or promise given to Israel, and applies it to the church.

the miraculous regathering of the Jewish people

... is an inference of your system, not a plain teaching of Scripture. You are begging the question.

At least so-called "spiritualizing," which no one is doing except when Scripture itself does it, takes the word of God seriously. You ignoring what you can't shoehorn into your system, on the other hand, doesn't.

 

[aleshanee]

japan is evil..... that;s a fact. .... israel is evil too...also a fact... but it;s also true both countries are allies of the united states and considered some of americas best friends..... we support and help defend both countries because they are our friends.. . ... it;s that simple... and though both have hurt us in the past they are still better friends than those who do not call us friends and would hurt us even worse......

for the record.... personally .... i don;t believe anyone has an entitlement.. a claim.. or a divine right to any land on earth in the modern age.... ......in the world we live in land is there for whoever can conquer it and hold it...... . that;s a lesson that was taught to my ancestors 2 centuries ago.... and it has been taught by example through the actions of every country on earth since then.... ...it will be that way until Christ returns.......

every generation that has ever lived since nicea has read revelation and believed they were seeing prophecy being fulfilled in some way right before their eyes.... .... i think those prophecies have yet to be realized... and when they do come to pass there will be no doubt and no dispute about what is happening..... what we have seen so far is not it...... ...

 

[illinoisguy]

If DNA is valid for purposes of determining which individuals living today are covered by the alleged "everlasting covenant" with Abraham, then we need to have all current residents of Israel/Palestine tested to see if they have a divine entitlement to live there.

This testing program should cover both Israeli Jews and Palestinians, and it might produce surprising results, since some Jewish scholars have come to the conclusion that many modern-day Palestinians are descended from the ancient Jewish inhabitants of the land.

"In recent years, genetic studies have demonstrated that, at least paternally, Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians are related to each other. Genetic studies on Jews have shown that Jews and Palestinians are closer to each other than the Jews are to their host countries. At the haplogroup level, defined by the binary polymorphisms only, the Y chromosome distribution in Arabs and Jews was similar but not identical.

"A 2010 study by Atzmon and Harry Ostrer concluded that the Palestinians were, together with Bedouins, Druze and southern European groups, the closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish populations.

"One DNA study by Nebel found substantial genetic overlap among Israeli/Palestinian Arabs and Jews. the study concluded that 'part, or perhaps the majority' of Muslim Palestinians descend from 'local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD.'. . .

"A number of pre-Mandatory Zionists, from Ahad Ha'am and Ber Borochov to David Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Ben Zvi believed that the Palestinian peasant population as descended from the ancient biblical Hebrews, but this belief was disowned when its ideological implications became problematic. . . .

"Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli researcher, entrepreneur and proponent of a controversial alternative solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, asserts that nearly 90% of all Palestinians living within Israel and the occupied territories (including Israel's Arab citizens and Negev Bedouin) are descended from the Jewish Israelite peasantry that remained on the land, after the others, mostly city dwellers, were exiled or left."

Origin of the Palestinians - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org