Is your Preaching Stained With The Blood?

[Tarheel Baptist]

To me, a thought provoking question...in this current church culture!

http://www.sermoncentral.com/pastors-preaching-articles/russell-moore-is-your-preaching-stained-with-blood-1609.asp?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=scnewsletter&utm_content=SC+Update+20130629

 

[brianb]

People have always had a natural aversion to blood (when it's not their own) so they call classic Christianity "a bloody religion". It goes hand-in-hand with their aversion to hellfire. This of course doesn't mean we stop preaching this but realize that without the Holy Spirit's help they cannot accept this doctrine - the natural man cannot receive the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Torrent v.3]

I agree with him that normal run of the mill Christians remove the blood.

"Some of this is the result of the lingering sting of liberal Christian hostility toward a “slaughterhouse religion.” Some of it is the result of an age that fears blood, but doesn’t know why. Some of it is the result of our ignorance, as we think that “blood” is just another metaphor, one we can easily replace."

 

[Castor Muscular]

Oh, come now, you're not going to bring up the time I brought a shotgun to church again, are you? 





Note to our fans at the NSA: This is called a "joke".

 

[Smellin Coffee]

So what did the Old Testament prophets and Jesus have to say about blood sacrifice?

Samuel:

Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Zechariah:

Thus said the Lord my God: `Become shepherd of the flock doomed to slaughter. Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished; and those who sell them say,  "Blessed be the Lord, I have become rich"'; and their own shepherds have no pity on them.

Hosea:

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings...They love sacrifice; they sacrifice flesh and eat it; but the Lord has no delight in them. 

Isaiah:

What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats...even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression... 

and...

He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol.
These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations; I also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring their fears upon them, because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight.

Amos:

I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.  Even though you offer me your burnt offerings...I will not accept them and the peace offerings of your fatted beasts I will not look upon.

Micah:

With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high?  Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?  Will the lord be pleased with thousands of rams....Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Jeremiah in Lamentations:

This was for the sins of her prophets and the iniquities of her priests, who shed in the midst of her the blood of the innocent. They wandered, blind, through the streets, so defiled with blood that none could touch their garments

Jeremiah in his Temple Gate sermon:

For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever...Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers?...For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

David:

In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. Then I said, “Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me: I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.

and...

O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Jacob said Levi was cursed of God for their violence to men and animals:

“Simeon and Levi are brothers; weapons of violence are their swords. Let my soul come not into their council; O my glory, be not joined to their company. For in their anger they killed men, and in their willfulness they hamstrung oxen. Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce, and their wrath, for it is cruel! I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.

And even Jesus referenced Jeremiah's sermon above:

It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you have made it a den of robberss.

Jesus also tied in the "robber" theme by telling His disciples that it is "robbers" who commit sacrifice:

All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them...The thief comes only to steal and kill ((thyō - meaning sacrifice) and destroy.

 

[christundivided]

So what did the Old Testament prophets and Jesus have to say about blood sacrifice?

Samuel:

Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Zechariah:

Thus said the Lord my God: `Become shepherd of the flock doomed to slaughter. Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished; and those who sell them say,  "Blessed be the Lord, I have become rich"'; and their own shepherds have no pity on them.

Hosea:

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings...They love sacrifice; they sacrifice flesh and eat it; but the Lord has no delight in them. 

Isaiah:

What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats...even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression... 

and...

He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol.
These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations; I also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring their fears upon them, because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight.

Amos:

I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.  Even though you offer me your burnt offerings...I will not accept them and the peace offerings of your fatted beasts I will not look upon.

Micah:

With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high?  Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?  Will the lord be pleased with thousands of rams....Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Jeremiah in Lamentations:

This was for the sins of her prophets and the iniquities of her priests, who shed in the midst of her the blood of the innocent. They wandered, blind, through the streets, so defiled with blood that none could touch their garments

Jeremiah in his Temple Gate sermon:

For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever...Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers?...For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

David:

In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. Then I said, “Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me: I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.

and...

O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Jacob said Levi was cursed of God for their violence to men and animals:

“Simeon and Levi are brothers; weapons of violence are their swords. Let my soul come not into their council; O my glory, be not joined to their company. For in their anger they killed men, and in their willfulness they hamstrung oxen. Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce, and their wrath, for it is cruel! I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.

And even Jesus referenced Jeremiah's sermon above:

It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you have made it a den of robberss.

Jesus also tied in the "robber" theme by telling His disciples that it is "robbers" who commit sacrifice:

All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them...The thief comes only to steal and kill ((thyō - meaning sacrifice) and destroy.

You know you're selectively quoting the OT. I'll not share every verse that references blood atonement. I believe you're aware that the few verses you mentioned would pale in comparison to the amount that do mention blood atonement. The verses you mentioned are God's response to a people that refused to obey Him....

What about what Christ Himself said?

Luk 22:20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Mat 26:27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 6:51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52  The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

So what did the Old Testament prophets and Jesus have to say about blood sacrifice?

Samuel:

Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.

Zechariah:

Thus said the Lord my God: `Become shepherd of the flock doomed to slaughter. Those who buy them slay them and go unpunished; and those who sell them say,  "Blessed be the Lord, I have become rich"'; and their own shepherds have no pity on them.

Hosea:

For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings...They love sacrifice; they sacrifice flesh and eat it; but the Lord has no delight in them. 

Isaiah:

What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the Lord; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats...even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, correct oppression... 

and...

He who slaughters an ox is like one who kills a man; he who sacrifices a lamb, like one who breaks a dog's neck; he who presents a grain offering, like one who offers pig's blood; he who makes a memorial offering of frankincense, like one who blesses an idol.
These have chosen their own ways, and their soul delights in their abominations; I also will choose harsh treatment for them and bring their fears upon them, because when I called, no one answered, when I spoke, they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes and chose that in which I did not delight.

Amos:

I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies.  Even though you offer me your burnt offerings...I will not accept them and the peace offerings of your fatted beasts I will not look upon.

Micah:

With what shall I come before the Lord, and bow myself before God on high?  Shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves a year old?  Will the lord be pleased with thousands of rams....Shall I give my first-born for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

Jeremiah in Lamentations:

This was for the sins of her prophets and the iniquities of her priests, who shed in the midst of her the blood of the innocent. They wandered, blind, through the streets, so defiled with blood that none could touch their garments

Jeremiah in his Temple Gate sermon:

For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly execute justice one with another, if you do not oppress the sojourner, the fatherless, or the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own harm, then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your fathers forever...Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers?...For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ But they did not obey or incline their ear, but walked in their own counsels and the stubbornness of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.

David:

In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. Then I said, “Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me: I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.

and...

O Lord, open my lips, and my mouth will declare your praise. For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Jacob said Levi was cursed of God for their violence to men and animals:

“Simeon and Levi are brothers; weapons of violence are their swords. Let my soul come not into their council; O my glory, be not joined to their company. For in their anger they killed men, and in their willfulness they hamstrung oxen. Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce, and their wrath, for it is cruel! I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel.

And even Jesus referenced Jeremiah's sermon above:

It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you have made it a den of robberss.

Jesus also tied in the "robber" theme by telling His disciples that it is "robbers" who commit sacrifice:

All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them...The thief comes only to steal and kill ((thyō - meaning sacrifice) and destroy.

WHAT are you talking about?

 

[Smellin Coffee]

You know you're selectively quoting the OT. I'll not share every verse that references blood atonement. I believe you're aware that the few verses you mentioned would pale in comparison to the amount that do mention blood atonement. The verses you mentioned are God's response to a people that refused to obey Him....

And the statements show that any sacrifice was worthless without obedience. Lines up with Matthew 5:

So if you are offering your gift (probably grain offering) at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

What about what Christ Himself said?

Luk 22:20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Mat 26:27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 6:51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52  The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

I have no problem with those verses when you take context into consideration. Chronology comes into play here. Jesus' teaching in John 6 came before the parallel passages in Matt. 26 and Luke 22. With that in mind, Jesus in John 6 was not speaking about literal blood, which the atonement needed but rather something else. The "bread" and "blood" were metaphors for "life". IOW, we are to consume the example and teachings of Jesus in order to have life.

The verses continuing in John 6:

Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

The disciples grumbled because they didn't get the metaphor. Jesus then explained it to them:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Jesus was saying that the metaphors of "bread" and "blood" are in reality "spirit" and "life". Peter understood this. When many disciples left Jesus and He stood there with the 12, He asked them if they would leave also. Peter, understanding the metaphor said, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

So the John 6 context is not of blood atonement but rather of consumption of the words that Jesus taught, words which abide in us and cause us to abide in Him.

With that context, we can see at the Last Supper the context remains. The bread and wine represented body/blood = spirit/life. Jesus knew He was going to die and be resurrected. He also knew He HAD to die at that time because His ministerial scope needed to be globalized and He could not do that being in one place at a time. God was going to replace Him on earth with the Holy Spirit.

John 14:

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Jesus then goes on to teach about obedience then said:

These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Granted, that is not the complete role of the Holy Spirit but the Spirit was sent in an effort to support the words Jesus taught in a global manner. At the Last Supper, Jesus was using the body/blood metaphor again as that is how the disciples would have recognized it based on John 6. And to top it all off, Jesus at His ascension again reiterated His teachings:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

The emphasis of Jesus was not about blood atonement but about the content of His teaching and obedience to His teaching.

 

[christundivided]

And the statements show that any sacrifice was worthless without obedience. Lines up with Matthew 5:

What begins obedience SM?

Its one thing to say a man must keep God's commandments and another thing to say that Blood Atonement is meaningless without keeping God's commandments. You're walking on dangerous ground.

I have no problem with those verses when you take context into consideration. Chronology comes into play here. Jesus' teaching in John 6 came before the parallel passages in Matt. 26 and Luke 22. With that in mind, Jesus in John 6 was not speaking about literal blood, which the atonement needed but rather something else. The "bread" and "blood" were metaphors for "life". IOW, we are to consume the example and teachings of Jesus in order to have life.

One big problem with your belief. Jesus did not say this. In fact, many many people walked away from Christ that day. Do you think if Christ had run them down and said.

"The "bread" and "blood" were metaphors for "life". IOW, "

Would they have stayed with Him?

So the John 6 context is not of blood atonement but rather of consumption of the words that Jesus taught, words which abide in us and cause us to abide in Him.

What cleanse man of sin? Is just turning to God enough to make man clean?

Does a blood sacrifice have any value? Be specific. Do you not place any value on "Blood Atonement".

How about

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The emphasis of Jesus was not about blood atonement but about the content of His teaching and obedience to His teaching.

Curious. Is it important how Christ suffered? Was the method important? Or is it just the fact that He died?

Do you believe Christ pretty much shed all His blood on the cross? Was any of that "Blood" important?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

You know you're selectively quoting the OT. I'll not share every verse that references blood atonement. I believe you're aware that the few verses you mentioned would pale in comparison to the amount that do mention blood atonement. The verses you mentioned are God's response to a people that refused to obey Him....

And the statements show that any sacrifice was worthless without obedience. Lines up with Matthew 5:

So if you are offering your gift (probably grain offering) at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

What about what Christ Himself said?

Luk 22:20  Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Mat 26:27  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Joh 6:51  I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
Joh 6:52  The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
Joh 6:53  Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

I have no problem with those verses when you take context into consideration. Chronology comes into play here. Jesus' teaching in John 6 came before the parallel passages in Matt. 26 and Luke 22. With that in mind, Jesus in John 6 was not speaking about literal blood, which the atonement needed but rather something else. The "bread" and "blood" were metaphors for "life". IOW, we are to consume the example and teachings of Jesus in order to have life.

The verses continuing in John 6:

Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. 55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread[c] the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

The disciples grumbled because they didn't get the metaphor. Jesus then explained it to them:

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

Jesus was saying that the metaphors of "bread" and "blood" are in reality "spirit" and "life". Peter understood this. When many disciples left Jesus and He stood there with the 12, He asked them if they would leave also. Peter, understanding the metaphor said, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

So the John 6 context is not of blood atonement but rather of consumption of the words that Jesus taught, words which abide in us and cause us to abide in Him.

With that context, we can see at the Last Supper the context remains. The bread and wine represented body/blood = spirit/life. Jesus knew He was going to die and be resurrected. He also knew He HAD to die at that time because His ministerial scope needed to be globalized and He could not do that being in one place at a time. God was going to replace Him on earth with the Holy Spirit.

John 14:

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Jesus then goes on to teach about obedience then said:

These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Granted, that is not the complete role of the Holy Spirit but the Spirit was sent in an effort to support the words Jesus taught in a global manner. At the Last Supper, Jesus was using the body/blood metaphor again as that is how the disciples would have recognized it based on John 6. And to top it all off, Jesus at His ascension again reiterated His teachings:

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

The emphasis of Jesus was not about blood atonement but about the content of His teaching and obedience to His teaching.

Then why the blood atonement?
Couldn't we just try really hard and exercise social justice?

Dan, I hope you are playing Devils advocate and not really the apostate leaning poster you appear to be....

 

[Smellin Coffee]

What begins obedience SM?

Probably different things. God, faith, fear, willing heart, love, etc.

Its one thing to say a man must keep God's commandments and another thing to say that Blood Atonement is meaningless without keeping God's commandments. You're walking on dangerous ground.

Where did Jesus teach that blood atonement was mandatory for salvation and obedience wasn't?

One big problem with your belief. Jesus did not say this. In fact, many many people walked away from Christ that day. Do you think if Christ had run them down and said.

"The "bread" and "blood" were metaphors for "life". IOW, "

Would they have stayed with Him?

Probably not. Not many seemed to stick around when He preached:

If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

What cleanse man of sin? Is just turning to God enough to make man clean?

Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment....Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation...For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself. But the wrong, if he turns from all his sins which he has done, and he shall guard all My laws, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness, he shall certainly live, he shall not die.

Does a blood sacrifice have any value? Be specific. Do you not place any value on "Blood Atonement".


The OT prophets seemed to have preached against it. Jesus never taught it outright. When studying the roots of the Torah, there is some indication that the Levitical aspect came out of Babylon as there is little to no record before that. Now, it was prophesied that the Messiah die a cruel death so in that essence, it does matter.

How about

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Again, as symbolic as Revelation is, I see it as living the life of Christ to the death by use of their verbal testimony will give the saints the power to overcome Satan at that point in the future.

Curious. Is it important how Christ suffered? Was the method important? Or is it just the fact that He died?

Aside from prophetical fulfillment, I don't know.

Do you believe Christ pretty much shed all His blood on the cross? Was any of that "Blood" important?

How can we know how much volume of blood He lost?

 

[christundivided]

What begins obedience SM?

Probably different things. God, faith, fear, willing heart, love, etc.

Its one thing to say a man must keep God's commandments and another thing to say that Blood Atonement is meaningless without keeping God's commandments. You're walking on dangerous ground.

Where did Jesus teach that blood atonement was mandatory for salvation and obedience wasn't?

One big problem with your belief. Jesus did not say this. In fact, many many people walked away from Christ that day. Do you think if Christ had run them down and said.

"The "bread" and "blood" were metaphors for "life". IOW, "

Would they have stayed with Him?

Probably not. Not many seemed to stick around when He preached:

If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

What cleanse man of sin? Is just turning to God enough to make man clean?

Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment....Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation...For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

The being who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the crookedness of the father, nor the father bear the crookedness of the son. The righteousness of the righteous is upon himself, and the wrongness of the wrong is upon himself. But the wrong, if he turns from all his sins which he has done, and he shall guard all My laws, and shall do right-ruling and righteousness, he shall certainly live, he shall not die.

Does a blood sacrifice have any value? Be specific. Do you not place any value on "Blood Atonement".


The OT prophets seemed to have preached against it. Jesus never taught it outright. When studying the roots of the Torah, there is some indication that the Levitical aspect came out of Babylon as there is little to no record before that. Now, it was prophesied that the Messiah die a cruel death so in that essence, it does matter.

How about

Rev 12:11  And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Again, as symbolic as Revelation is, I see it as living the life of Christ to the death by use of their verbal testimony will give the saints the power to overcome Satan at that point in the future.

Curious. Is it important how Christ suffered? Was the method important? Or is it just the fact that He died?

Aside from prophetical fulfillment, I don't know.

Do you believe Christ pretty much shed all His blood on the cross? Was any of that "Blood" important?

How can we know how much volume of blood He lost?

I appreciate your honest response. However, It does worry me.

Does a blood sacrifice have any value? Be specific. Do you not place any value on "Blood Atonement".


The OT prophets seemed to have preached against it. Jesus never taught it outright. When studying the roots of the Torah, there is some indication that the Levitical aspect came out of Babylon as there is little to no record before that. Now, it was prophesied that the Messiah die a cruel death so in that essence, it does matter.

No they didn't. They preached against those who claimed atonement and then lived however they wanted to live.

What cleanse man of sin? Is just turning to God enough to make man clean?

Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin! For I know my transgressions, and my sin is ever before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you may be justified in your words and blameless in your judgment....Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, O God of my salvation...For you will not delight in sacrifice, or I would give it; you will not be pleased with a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.

Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.

Have you ever studied the day of atonement? Its true that the blood of animals could never take away sin. Yet, the day of atonement had great influence and meaning to Israel. They practiced its rituals for thousands of years. It had to provide some meaning to Israel. You appear to be reject it all together. Israel would not do such.

Would they have stayed with Him?

Probably not. Not many seemed to stick around when He preached:
Quote

    If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

There were great multitudes that left what they had an followed Christ. You know the stories. They didn't leave because of "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.". They had.....

Do you believe Christ pretty much shed all His blood on the cross? Was any of that "Blood" important?

How can we know how much volume of blood He lost?

How much do you believe remained? Certainly more than what would come from a "pin prick" was shed.

Joh 19:34  But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Many believe the symptoms Christ experienced on the cross are a indication of low blood pressure due to excessive bleeding.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Have you ever studied the day of atonement? Its true that the blood of animals could never take away sin.

Leviticus 4:

vs. 20 And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.
vs. 26 So the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.
vs. 31 And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.
vs. 35 And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Leviticus 5:

vs. 10 And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin that he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.
vs. 13 Thus the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed in any one of these things, and he shall be forgiven.
vs. 16 And the priest shall make atonement for him with the ram of the guilt offering, and he shall be forgiven.
vs. 18  and the priest shall make atonement for him for the mistake that he made unintentionally, and he shall be forgiven.

So are you suggesting that the killing of innocent animals was not really needed to obtain forgiveness?

Yet, the day of atonement had great influence and meaning to Israel. They practiced its rituals for thousands of years. It had to provide some meaning to Israel. You appear to be reject it all together. Israel would not do such.


EXACTLY! Hence, the prophets' teaching against such as well as Jesus' display at the temple.

How much do you believe remained? Certainly more than what would come from a "pin prick" was shed.

Joh 19:34  But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

In fulfillment of the prophecy "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced..."

I would also add the prophecy of the Psalmist:

He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken.

It was important that Jesus was pierced with no bones broken. It helps identify Paul's false claim to the Corinthians when he claimed the body of Christ was "broken".

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The synoptic Gospels never use the word "broken" as it would have been in violation of the Messianic prophecies.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Then why the blood atonement?

Exactly my question, specifically because it was not mentioned in Christ's Gospel presentation.

Couldn't we just try really hard and exercise social justice?

Did Jesus ever preach those who practice said justices would have eternal life? Or did He preach imputation of His righteousness based on His death, burial, resurrection and faith alone on behalf of a "believer"?

Dan, I hope you are playing Devils advocate and not really the apostate leaning poster you appear to be....

Trying to figure out what the truth is and in order to do that, for me it works to throw oppositional viewpoints to figure out what is true and what isn't. Frankly, the Bible says a whole lot of different stuff when one takes off the "evangelical" (or whatever religious persuasion from which one comes) glasses and try to compare passages against one another.

If Jesus is the core of true Christianity, why do we get our salvation dogma from another source when He gave it Himself?

 

[christundivided]

So are you suggesting that the killing of innocent animals was not really needed to obtain forgiveness?

It was necessary under the law of Moses. Are you rejecting this?

Could it do completely AWAY with sin? No.

EXACTLY! Hence, the prophets' teaching against such as well as Jesus' display at the temple.

You lost me.

In fulfillment of the prophecy "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced..."

So you are emphasizing Him being "pierced" and ignoring the result of that piercing? You've heard the old say.

Stick me and I'll what?

I would also add the prophecy of the Psalmist:

He keeps all his bones; not one of them is broken.

It was important that Jesus was pierced with no bones broken. It helps identify Paul's false claim to the Corinthians when he claimed the body of Christ was "broken".

And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The synoptic Gospels never use the word "broken" as it would have been in violation of the Messianic prophecies.

I'm just curious how you eat a piece of bread? Do you stuff it all in your mouth at one time? You know that Paul was referencing the breaking of the bread.

You're are being entirely dishonest with what Paul wrote to Corinth. Just because Paul used the phrase "broken for you". (which in context is being used to the breaking of bread).... it doesn't mean it a reference to bones being broken in his body.

Have you have ever been beaten to the point your "flesh" broke open? Christ was. His Soul and Body was broken for us. Why in the world you're trying to imply that Paul meant the bones in the body of Christ was broken..... is beyond me. You're seeing what you want to see. You're ignoring obvious explanations.

 

[Smellin Coffee]

It was necessary under the law of Moses. Are you rejecting this?

I'm not rejecting anything at this point but if the Levitical passages of the Torah became a part of Israel after the Babylonian captivity (as some trace it), it would make sense that the prophets and Jesus were trying to bring Israel back to what God had intended: obedience to Him without need for barbaric sacrifice.

Could it do completely AWAY with sin? No.

So which parts of sin were done away with and which ones weren't as a result of sacrifice?

You lost me.

You said (if I understood it correctly) that traditional Israel accepted blood sacrifice for atonement. I simply said that because of this practice, perhaps that is why the prophets actually addressed it showing God demanded obedience rather than sacrifice.

So you are emphasizing Him being "pierced" and ignoring the result of that piercing? You've heard the old say.

Stick me and I'll what?


Now I'm confused. I never denied there was blood at the cross. I am addressing the need for Jesus' blood to atone for our sin. The presence of blood does not atonement make. If Jesus had cut his knee as a 4-year old, would that blood have been atoning for our sin?

I'm just curious how you eat a piece of bread? Do you stuff it all in your mouth at one time? You know that Paul was referencing the breaking of the bread.

You're are being entirely dishonest with what Paul wrote to Corinth. Just because Paul used the phrase "broken for you". (which in context is being used to the breaking of bread).... it doesn't mean it a reference to bones being broken in his body.

Have you have ever been beaten to the point your "flesh" broke open? Christ was. His Soul and Body was broken for us. Why in the world you're trying to imply that Paul meant the bones in the body of Christ was broken..... is beyond me. You're seeing what you want to see. You're ignoring obvious explanations.

Then why didn't the actual eyewitness, Matthew record it that Jesus said it that way? Why didn't Luke? Probably because Luke and Matthew were trying to be honest about it. Paul has much bigger issues than this freudian slip.

 

[christundivided]

I'm not rejecting anything at this point but if the Levitical passages of the Torah became a part of Israel after the Babylonian captivity (as some trace it), it would make sense that the prophets and Jesus were trying to bring Israel back to what God had intended: obedience to Him without need for barbaric sacrifice.

There is nothing barbaric about such a sacrifice. Why are you saying its "barbaric"? I assume you eat meat? Is a animal dying to control your hunger "barbaric"?

Blood sacrifice precede the teachings in Leviticus. I know you have read about Abraham. Was he a good man? Did he ever sacrifice any animals?

So which parts of sin were done away with and which ones weren't as a result of sacrifice?

Sin continues. It has not been eradicated. Not your view of true obedience and not by the sacrifice of animals. Doesn't sin still exist? Your method hasn't brought anything new to the table.

You said (if I understood it correctly) that traditional Israel accepted blood sacrifice for atonement. I simply said that because of this practice, perhaps that is why the prophets actually addressed it showing God demanded obedience rather than sacrifice.

Abraham accepted blood sacrifices. Jacob accepted blood sacrifices.... on down the line.

Now I'm confused. I never denied there was blood at the cross. I am addressing the need for Jesus' blood to atone for our sin. The presence of blood does not atonement make. If Jesus had cut his knee as a 4-year old, would that blood have been atoning for our sin?

I'm not trying to see "magic" in the blood of Christ. I am requiring the blood Christ for atonement. You're questioning it. I never tried to make it about the "presence" of blood.

Then why didn't the actual eyewitness, Matthew record it that Jesus said it that way? Why didn't Luke? Probably because Luke and Matthew were trying to be honest about it. Paul has much bigger issues than this freudian slip.

Jesus broke the bread. Its recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Mat 26:26  And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.

Mar 14:22  And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body.

Luk 22:19  And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

You will notice Mark and Matthew are almost identical. Luke "adds" "do in remembrance of me"

Why do you not have a problem with the addition found in Luke? Mark does change disciples to "them". Bad Mark.

Paul simply adds what the others do not record. The "broken body" is implied in the "breaking of break". You know this.

1Co 11:24  And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.







Mat 16:11  How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?