From RLDS to Baptist to Charismania to Reformed Baptist, a.k.a. Calvinism.

Ekklesian

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Interesting. I'd like to hear how you/your parents came out of the LDS system some time. (I don't want to hijack this thread though)
I'll try to be brief.

As I alluded to elsewhere:
[Pentecostals] are Baptistic in the aspects you mentioned, as well as inbeliever's baptism and congregational autonomy. And they appeal to those wmho seek real confirmation apart from tradition.

[They] are especially vulnerable to cults such as Mormonism which claim to offer such.

My dad was one who was converted to the RLDS church, as it was known at the time (Community of Christ now), but returned to Pentecostalism.

There is very little similarity between the LDS and the RLDS churches. After the assassinations of Joseph Smith and Hiram, his brother the group split between loyalists to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith Jr. Brigham Young took his loyalists, who more reflect the original movement, to Utah where they could set up their sovereign 'state' and practice their polygamy legally. The remaining group reorganized (the R in RLDS), abandoned polygamy and returned to Independence, Missouri, out from which they were earlier driven to Illinois by the Missouri militia. The Books of Mormon of the RLDS and the LDS do not match, and neither do their Doctrines and Covenants.

From the outside looking in, aside from their appeal to direct revelation, by which they revised the Scriptures, and their extra-biblical texts which they regard as inspired, there isn't much to distinguish them from mainstream Christian orthodoxy. Not so with the LDS. From the outside looking in, the LDS looks quite different.

Anyway...my earliest memories of church were the RLDS church. My parents married as teenagers. They had to get married. Before my mother was 20, she had two kids, my brother and me. And shortly thereafter, they were converted to the RLDS faith. I remember their baptism. But I also remember attending Bible school at my grandmother's church. They had a woman pastor, which might sound very liberal, but it wasn't. I explained in this post: https://www.fundamentalforums.org/threads/women-keeping-silence-in-church.11825/post-240623

Also, when visiting my grandmother, who was a faithful churchgoer, she always made sure I attended with her. I certainly liked their services better. The music was more lively, and boy-howdy so was their praying lol. By contrast, the RLDS services were more like funerals. But other than that, I knew of no real difference. I have to commend my late grandmother for her deference, in not making an issue of the RLDS, though I'm certain my parents' departure from the Pentecostal faith tremendously vexed her soul. I know few people who would have kept silent about it.

Shortly after I was baptized in 1975, for reasons not explained, my parents began attending the local Baptist church. It wasn't until I was in high school that I began to pay attention to the teaching and gained an interest in the Bible and spiritual things. I still knew of no real differences between the RLDS teachings and orthodoxy. I wasn't even thinking about them. But with roots in Pentecostalism, and still visiting the Pentecostal church with my grandparents through out my high school and college careers, I was more tuned in to the debates between them and the Baptists.

In high school, I made friends with some charismatics, and began attending their special services. I remembered my experience at the Bible camp I mentioned earlier (the only one I ever attended). I had an ecstatic experience there. I don't mention it often, because I'm not sure what to make of it. I know it was real, but it's never been repeated since, and I so wanted another experience like many in charismania claim to have regularly. But I now know most of them are lying, and those who aren't lying are manufacturing their experiences, but are deceived into thinking they're of the Spirit. (For that matter, now anyone who starts out saying, "God told me..." I automatically consider to be deceived or a liar.)

So, though a Baptist, women preachers and ecstatic forms of worship were nothing shocking or edgy to me.

By the end of high school, I was attending Gothard seminars, and thought I'd found the confirmation of Gospel truths I was looking for. So I am a real fundamentalist, LOL.

In college I fell in love with a girl. I don't remember how we met, but I remember our break-up. She was a gorgeous, and sweet, devout RLDS girl. I was ready to go back to the RLDS church with her. And that's when I began studying Mormon history and RLDS/LDS doctrines. Fortunately, the seeds of the Doctrines of Grace had been planted in my heart just that year as well. And I was also poring over John Bunyan, Matthew Henry, John Calvin, C.H. Spurgeon, etc. (And I'd been introduced to that Anglican divine, John Donne) I read the Book of Mormon through (the RLDS version) and their version of the Bible, the Inspired Version, which contains Joseph Smith's "corrections." By this time, I'd read the KJV through twice, and I'd read through the NAS, RSV, NIV, and the famous paraphrase, TLB. I had large sections of the Scriptures committed to memory. It didn't matter the amount of evidence I presented, she clung to her Book of Mormon. I ended up hurt and angry, and I ended up hurting her deeply. When breaking up, she said, "You know more of our history and doctrines than even some of our apostles do." And in tears she simply walked away. She earned her Master's that month in Speech Therapy, and I never saw her again. Not in person. I saw her in a commercial years later. She devoted herself to working with children who because of physical deformities had speech impedements, and was featured in a United Way commercial.

Later I married a woman who was devoted to herself, but she had the right doctrine...mostly.

This is getting to be a long story, and the half hasn't been told. But I found I truly believed the Doctrines of Grace, then. And the Pentecostal/Charismatic chains which are akin to the RLDS, were broken.

The Pentecostal/Charismatic and RLDS movements are related in their focus on extra-biblical revelation, works, and free will.

More on that later if anyone's interested.
 
An interesting addendum...

Years later, I got a call on the home phone. It was still the 1990s. The caller I.D. showed the last name of the young RLDS girl I mentioned. When I answered, it was a voice I didn't recognize, and they had dialed a wrong number. But before she hung up, I asked, "I see your last name is [Smith]. Are you related to either Tom or Sally? [Not real names]

"Tom is my husband," She said, "And he has a sister named Sally."

"RLDS?" I asked.

"Yes...sort of..."

"This may sound strange, but I think I know your husband." I told her who I was.

She said, "You know what? He's mentioned you a time or two. What number did I call?" I gave her the number. "He'll call you back tonight."

And he did. And he told me of his conversion to the Baptist Faith, and of the impression my relationship with his sister had left upon him.
 
Appreciate you sharing your testimony. Interesting road you’ve traveled.
 
I forgot to add that my parents have both returned to Pentecostalism. But, alas, I think I will die a Baptist.
 
I'll try to be brief.

As I alluded to elsewhere:


There is very little similarity between the LDS and the RLDS churches. After the assassinations of Joseph Smith and Hiram, his brother the group split between loyalists to Brigham Young and Joseph Smith Jr. Brigham Young took his loyalists, who more reflect the original movement, to Utah where they could set up their sovereign 'state' and practice their polygamy legally. The remaining group reorganized (the R in RLDS), abandoned polygamy and returned to Independence, Missouri, out from which they were earlier driven to Illinois by the Missouri militia. The Books of Mormon of the RLDS and the LDS do not match, and neither do their Doctrines and Covenants.

From the outside looking in, aside from their appeal to direct revelation, by which they revised the Scriptures, and their extra-biblical texts which they regard as inspired, there isn't much to distinguish them from mainstream Christian orthodoxy. Not so with the LDS. From the outside looking in, the LDS looks quite different.

Anyway...my earliest memories of church were the RLDS church. My parents married as teenagers. They had to get married. Before my mother was 20, she had two kids, my brother and me. And shortly thereafter, they were converted to the RLDS faith. I remember their baptism. But I also remember attending Bible school at my grandmother's church. They had a woman pastor, which might sound very liberal, but it wasn't. I explained in this post: https://www.fundamentalforums.org/threads/women-keeping-silence-in-church.11825/post-240623

Also, when visiting my grandmother, who was a faithful churchgoer, she always made sure I attended with her. I certainly liked their services better. The music was more lively, and boy-howdy so was their praying lol. By contrast, the RLDS services were more like funerals. But other than that, I knew of no real difference. I have to commend my late grandmother for her deference, in not making an issue of the RLDS, though I'm certain my parents' departure from the Pentecostal faith tremendously vexed her soul. I know few people who would have kept silent about it.

Shortly after I was baptized in 1975, for reasons not explained, my parents began attending the local Baptist church. It wasn't until I was in high school that I began to pay attention to the teaching and gained an interest in the Bible and spiritual things. I still knew of no real differences between the RLDS teachings and orthodoxy. I wasn't even thinking about them. But with roots in Pentecostalism, and still visiting the Pentecostal church with my grandparents through out my high school and college careers, I was more tuned in to the debates between them and the Baptists.

In high school, I made friends with some charismatics, and began attending their special services. I remembered my experience at the Bible camp I mentioned earlier (the only one I ever attended). I had an ecstatic experience there. I don't mention it often, because I'm not sure what to make of it. I know it was real, but it's never been repeated since, and I so wanted another experience like many in charismania claim to have regularly. But I now know most of them are lying, and those who aren't lying are manufacturing their experiences, but are deceived into thinking they're of the Spirit. (For that matter, now anyone who starts out saying, "God told me..." I automatically consider to be deceived or a liar.)

So, though a Baptist, women preachers and ecstatic forms of worship were nothing shocking or edgy to me.

By the end of high school, I was attending Gothard seminars, and thought I'd found the confirmation of Gospel truths I was looking for. So I am a real fundamentalist, LOL.

In college I fell in love with a girl. I don't remember how we met, but I remember our break-up. She was a gorgeous, and sweet, devout RLDS girl. I was ready to go back to the RLDS church with her. And that's when I began studying Mormon history and RLDS/LDS doctrines. Fortunately, the seeds of the Doctrines of Grace had been planted in my heart just that year as well. And I was also poring over John Bunyan, Matthew Henry, John Calvin, C.H. Spurgeon, etc. (And I'd been introduced to that Anglican divine, John Donne) I read the Book of Mormon through (the RLDS version) and their version of the Bible, the Inspired Version, which contains Joseph Smith's "corrections." By this time, I'd read the KJV through twice, and I'd read through the NAS, RSV, NIV, and the famous paraphrase, TLB. I had large sections of the Scriptures committed to memory. It didn't matter the amount of evidence I presented, she clung to her Book of Mormon. I ended up hurt and angry, and I ended up hurting her deeply. When breaking up, she said, "You know more of our history and doctrines than even some of our apostles do." And in tears she simply walked away. She earned her Master's that month in Speech Therapy, and I never saw her again. Not in person. I saw her in a commercial years later. She devoted herself to working with children who because of physical deformities had speech impedements, and was featured in a United Way commercial.

Later I married a woman who was devoted to herself, but she had the right doctrine...mostly.

This is getting to be a long story, and the half hasn't been told. But I found I truly believed the Doctrines of Grace, then. And the Pentecostal/Charismatic chains which are akin to the RLDS, were broken.

The Pentecostal/Charismatic and RLDS movements are related in their focus on extra-biblical revelation, works, and free will.

More on that later if anyone's interested.
I'm always interested in hearing the accounts of people's conversions. Thank you for sharing thus far... please, my friend, continue.
 
What a winding tale, carry on.
 
Go on? Really? Okay. :)

I'll fill in some gaps. Like I said, Pentecostal/Charismatic (at least those with whom I was associated at the time) and the RLDS tend to focus on what they consider spiritual experiences for their insights. With the Pentecostals, it's more on their ecstatic experiences, with the RLDS, it was more on testimonies and office. They have what they call apostles and prophets. They are taught "from on high," not by other men. Their evangelists, preachers and teachers, are very much like the evangelists, preachers and teachers of orthodox Christianity. They differ in the material they use.

So, growing up, I was completely unaware of the vast body of Christian scholarship that existed. I would have to say my introduction to it was a book my Baptist pastor lent to me, James Montgomery Boice's exposition of the Sermon on the Mount. What a gold mine! Reading through it, there was so much that simply rang true, and was obviously true, and I'm wondering why I never made those connections on my own. And it only whetted my appetite for more. Looking back on it later I was realizing our need for teaching.

People who say one only needs the Bible aren't speaking the truth, and fail to see the irony in their statement, because without scholarship, they wouldn't have a Bible in their own language. They're also ignorant of the Bible itself. It tells us very plainly within its pages that Christ gave gifts, to His church, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers, and it tells us we have need of them.

So what of apostles? Pentecostals and the RLDS, and practically every whacked out charismatic cult claims to have them. Tammy (that's her real name. [why not?]) asked me once, "Christ's church in Acts had apostles. Wouldn't it follow that the true church today would have apostles?"
 
So I have to back up a little bit. The Mormon movement, in all it's schisms and sects and flavors, is called The Restoration. Joseph Smith, Sr. claimed to have had a vision and to have been called to restore Christ's true church on the earth. It had completely died out hundreds of years ago, and all that was left were the corruptions that were called churches then. (This is the 1830s)

Well--it had died out except for John the Beloved, who still walks the earth according to the RLDS, with three of the most worthy of the Nephites from the days Christ had visited the American continents, supposedly. The less worthy are in Heaven with the Lord, lol.

The Mormons are just a little under a century before the Azusa Street Revival, which is the birthplace of Pentecostalism. The Pentecostal mission and message was basically an echo of Joseph Smith's, that denominationalism is corruption, and now God is restoring the unity of the Church worldwide, baptizing in the Spirit, and bringing Christendom back to the Apostolic faith. "The church had apostles then, shouldn't it have it now? They spoke in tongues then, shouldn't we now? They had miracles back then, shouldn't we have miracles now?"

It wasn't until I'd studied a bit that I learned about the 2000 year old men still walking the earth. And later on I asked, if we still have the first apostles hanging around, why not just send them to restore the church?
 
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Got Questions.org has proven to be a fantastic resource for basic answers to many questions. Here's their contribution to the question of who/what are RLDS:
 
Got Questions.org has proven to be a fantastic resource for basic answers to many questions. Here's their contribution to the question of who/what are RLDS:
That is a good resource. I'm only going into the Latter Day Saint things as far as my engagement with them shaped my thinking.
 
Of course, in my early baptist days, I was premillennial in my eschatology. That was due to the predominance of the teaching, not just in baptist circles, but Pentecostal/Charismatic as well. And it just seemed reasonable according to a linear reading of Revelation. There was no RLDS contribution to my eschatology, but they're premillennial as well. It may sound unconnected, but dealing with the office and role of an apostle, and how to answer the question posed to me about whether the church should have apostles today primed me for Covenant Theology, that is, Reformed Theology, and the notion of Amillennialism.
 
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When Christ told His disciples that they would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes, He wasn't describing an earthly kingdom at the end of time. He was speaking metaphorically. The City of God, the Heavenly Jerusalem, Israel, the Church, stands on twelve foundations, and on those foundations are the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And they do rule the elect. Do we not appeal to Scripture for every matter of faith and practice?

That's not to say that where there is a dearth of the Scripture, and in extreme circumstances, God would not still let signs follow His missionaries, or perform miracles to confirm the message they preach. But those are exceptions.

There is no office of apostle or prophet to fill. If one is to be warned to flee the wrath to come he has Moses and the Prophets, the Gospels and the Epistles. Let him hear them.
 
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