FBCH Debt

[nightbusheretic14]

Does anyone know how much debt FBCH has? What is the reason for it and how can it be solved?

 

[Ex-Fundy]

One of the reasons is because the megalomaniac narcissist Schaap wanted a nice shiny new palace to be his legacy and was willing to put this on everyone else in order to get what he wanted. The man was and is a scumbag. FBC never needed a new building, most with horse sense know this to be true.

 

[Techmedic]

Really what would be the repercussion if FBCH welshed on the loan? Could a bankruptcy be in order for FBCH?  What would they lose? What would they be able to keep?

Didn't they need to come up with $1 mil for some new loan? Did that ever get raised?

 

[nightbusheretic14]

They got a lot of old buildings too that need to be torn  down but they still use them for the Sunday schools and RU department. I dont know if their debt will ever be reversed.  The would save tons of money if the college was right by the church but they dont know how to think. Especially since there are so few students there now...why keep using the campus in crown point?

 

[sword]

They got a lot of old buildings too that need to be torn  down but they still use them for the Sunday schools and RU department. I dont know if their debt will ever be reversed.  The would save tons of money if the college was right by the church but they dont know how to think. Especially since there are so few students there now...why keep using the campus in crown point?

I suspect there would not be a lot of buyers for the college property.

Building the new building along the highway near the college would have gave them options of selling the downtown property but that water under the bridge at this point.

What was the thinking regarding staying downtown when the decided to build?

 

[no value]

One of the reasons is because the megalomaniac narcissist Schaap wanted a nice shiny new palace to be his legacy and was willing to put this on everyone else in order to get what he wanted. The man was and is a scumbag. FBC never needed a new building, most with horse sense know this to be true.

I know of a pastor of similar ilk, a vain, narcissitic cry-baby who pouted until the gutless deacons approved the pastor's plan to buy some over-priced property and build a large church. Turns out his reasoning for buying the property was not for "souls" as he sold the church on, but rather to show-off for the rich people living in a high-class housing addition across the street. A much better (and cheaper) property less than two miles away would have been a far better choice. But you give in to the cry-babies because they like to use guilt from the pulpit that those opposed to their vision doesn't want to see people get saved.

The church is beautiful, well at least the auditorium, tailor-made for television. However, the rest of the church (namely the classrooms and fellow hall) was cheaped out to the extent of being impractical. This preacher got his forum to showcase himself on television, but the people who have to work in it and, more importantly, pay for it, got the short end of the stick.

Coming off my soap-box now. I feel much better.

 

[Bravo]

They got a lot of old buildings too that need to be torn  down but they still use them for the Sunday schools and RU department. I dont know if their debt will ever be reversed.  The would save tons of money if the college was right by the church but they dont know how to think. Especially since there are so few students there now...why keep using the campus in crown point?

I suspect there would not be a lot of buyers for the college property.

Building the new building along the highway near the college would have gave them options of selling the downtown property but that water under the bridge at this point.

What was the thinking regarding staying downtown when the decided to build?

1. A sentimental attachment to downtown Hammond is my guess,..

2. I wonder if the bus ministry had anything to do with it?

A. Current location fairly close to the highway as opposed to having to go down rt 30 with the buses.
B. How would Crown Point/Schererville HAC reacted to all the buses in their neighborhood?

Just a couple guesses.

 

[nightbusheretic14]

I think the "Jericho Plan" really hurt the church's finances.

 

[prophet]

It is the First Baptist Church of Hammond, IN.
It belongs in Hammond, IN

Next.

 

[WESLEY]

A Few Observations

I have been associated with First Baptist Church for 29 years, and a member for the majority of those years.  I am making these observations from that standpoint:

1.  As far as I know, the only debt the church has is on the new Auditorium.  Built at a cost of $30 million, we owe approximately $13 million.  Last I heard, the value of the church's property is in excess of $200 million.  So, our debt to value ratio is approx. 6.5%.  (Again, I understand the housing bubble has burst, and there probably wouldn't be a long line of people lining up to buy the Seifer Building...)

2.  Jack Schaap initially grew the church.  When the new auditorium was finished, we had 700 (I think) folding chairs setup in the auditorium, and it appeared we were desperately in need of the space.  Initially, the Sunday night crowd filled the main floor, and about 1/2 of the balcony.  Over time, the crowd grew to where on Sunday night, a few of the upper sections of the balcony were used on a regular basis.  I think many of the things he did  (for example, the missions teams) were very good.  I think that eventually growth itself became the goal, to where he was willing to consider the "contemporary" methods.  This is evidenced by his exalting non-denoms, his "why is God blessing them if what they're doing is wrong" philosophy, and his taking staff members to Willow Creek. 

3.  The church is probably the same size as it was it 2000.  His last 3 years, he drove much of the growth off.  That being said, about a year ago we held a Sunday evening service in the old auditorium.  The mezzanine (I'm guessing it sat approx. 350 packed and jammed) is now walled off, and the 2 side sections  (Old Bible Club & Pathfinder sections) are no longer there  (they probably sat around 200), so the auditorium probably seats 600 less than in did when Dr. Hyles passed away.  We put (I think) about 1,200 extra chairs in for the service, and it was pretty full... less than 600 seats empty.... Also, the main floor seats just under 4,000, and it probably has 3,000  on Sunday night.  That is about the capacity of the old auditorium.  Sorry if there are disagreements about this... just my logic

4.  Jack Schaap was under enormous pressure.  Whether this was his own doing, or that of the members, he had a mindset that he had to, at the minimum, keep the church and ministry the same size as under Dr. Hyles, and optimally double it.  I think in the early years, he experienced much growth, as is common under a new pastor for the first few years.  Those who had a "beef" with Dr. Hyles found him refreshing, while those who loved Dr. Hyles felt like he was going in the same direction.  It was a good situation to be in.

5.  Dr. Hyles left FBC in VERY good financial shape. Every building was debt free, we had $1 million in the surplus account, plus a lot of very generous benefactors, not to mention the multi million key man life insurance policy.  In his first 8 years, Jack Schaap had more money than he could imagine!  When the new building was finished, he had enough to pay off the new buiding, and pay every bill and salary for 3 months.  He wanted the money "liquid" as he was getting a better return on it than what the interest rate was... sadly, we listened....

6.  Pastor Wilkerson is very much like Dr. Hyles in many ways (his preaching is a little different).  He is with the people, the same way the "old timers" say Dr. Hyles was in the early years.  He is very thrifty with God's money.  He is a soul winner.  He loves people.  He is not looking to change the methods of the ministry, ie the bus ministry.  In fact, his wife was a bus captain throughout his pastorate in Long Beach, and several of his children are active in the bus ministry. 

7.  Our church is probably in the best financial sake in the past 12 years.  No, we don't have millions anymore, and the benefactors are gone, but for the first time, we are being careful with God's money, and paying all the bills without outside help.  In addition to this, we have put aside close to $400,000 for debt retirement in our Trust Fund.  Our general fund offerings our down from 3 years ago slightly, but it is enough.  Our missions giving is probably the best it's ever been.

I think the future of the college is brighter than the last 3 years, and financially the last 12.  I think God will enable us to refinance and completely pay off the debt in the next 5 years.

Sorry for the lengthy post... I know, there will be many disagreements with this post.  Please accept this in the spirit in which it is written.  Please pray for Pastor Wilkerson... especially his wife and children.

 

[bgwilkinson]

A Few Observations

I have been associated with First Baptist Church for 29 years, and a member for the majority of those years.  I am making these observations from that standpoint:

1.  As far as I know, the only debt the church has is on the new Auditorium.  Built at a cost of $30 million, we owe approximately $13 million.  Last I heard, the value of the church's property is in excess of $200 million.  So, our debt to value ratio is approx. 6.5%.  (Again, I understand the housing bubble has burst, and there probably wouldn't be a long line of people lining up to buy the Seifer Building...)

2.  Jack Schaap initially grew the church.  When the new auditorium was finished, we had 700 (I think) folding chairs setup in the auditorium, and it appeared we were desperately in need of the space.  Initially, the Sunday night crowd filled the main floor, and about 1/2 of the balcony.  Over time, the crowd grew to where on Sunday night, a few of the upper sections of the balcony were used on a regular basis.  I think many of the things he did  (for example, the missions teams) were very good.  I think that eventually growth itself became the goal, to where he was willing to consider the "contemporary" methods.  This is evidenced by his exalting non-denoms, his "why is God blessing them if what they're doing is wrong" philosophy, and his taking staff members to Willow Creek. 

3.  The church is probably the same size as it was it 2000.  His last 3 years, he drove much of the growth off.  That being said, about a year ago we held a Sunday evening service in the old auditorium.  The mezzanine (I'm guessing it sat approx. 350 packed and jammed) is now walled off, and the 2 side sections  (Old Bible Club & Pathfinder sections) are no longer there  (they probably sat around 200), so the auditorium probably seats 600 less than in did when Dr. Hyles passed away.  We put (I think) about 1,200 extra chairs in for the service, and it was pretty full... less than 600 seats empty.... Also, the main floor seats just under 4,000, and it probably has 3,000  on Sunday night.  That is about the capacity of the old auditorium.  Sorry if there are disagreements about this... just my logic

4.  Jack Schaap was under enormous pressure.  Whether this was his own doing, or that of the members, he had a mindset that he had to, at the minimum, keep the church and ministry the same size as under Dr. Hyles, and optimally double it.  I think in the early years, he experienced much growth, as is common under a new pastor for the first few years.  Those who had a "beef" with Dr. Hyles found him refreshing, while those who loved Dr. Hyles felt like he was going in the same direction.  It was a good situation to be in.

5.  Dr. Hyles left FBC in VERY good financial shape. Every building was debt free, we had $1 million in the surplus account, plus a lot of very generous benefactors, not to mention the multi million key man life insurance policy.  In his first 8 years, Jack Schaap had more money than he could imagine!  When the new building was finished, he had enough to pay off the new buiding, and pay every bill and salary for 3 months.  He wanted the money "liquid" as he was getting a better return on it than what the interest rate was... sadly, we listened....

6.  Pastor Wilkerson is very much like Dr. Hyles in many ways (his preaching is a little different).  He is with the people, the same way the "old timers" say Dr. Hyles was in the early years.  He is very thrifty with God's money.  He is a soul winner.  He loves people.  He is not looking to change the methods of the ministry, ie the bus ministry.  In fact, his wife was a bus captain throughout his pastorate in Long Beach, and several of his children are active in the bus ministry. 

7.  Our church is probably in the best financial sake in the past 12 years.  No, we don't have millions anymore, and the benefactors are gone, but for the first time, we are being careful with God's money, and paying all the bills without outside help.  In addition to this, we have put aside close to $400,000 for debt retirement in our Trust Fund.  Our general fund offerings our down from 3 years ago slightly, but it is enough.  Our missions giving is probably the best it's ever been.

I think the future of the college is brighter than the last 3 years, and financially the last 12.  I think God will enable us to refinance and completely pay off the debt in the next 5 years.

Sorry for the lengthy post... I know, there will be many disagreements with this post.  Please accept this in the spirit in which it is written.  Please pray for Pastor Wilkerson... especially his wife and children.

What he said

 

[cpizzle]

A Few Observations

I have been associated with First Baptist Church for 29 years, and a member for the majority of those years.  I am making these observations from that standpoint:

1.  As far as I know, the only debt the church has is on the new Auditorium.  Built at a cost of $30 million, we owe approximately $13 million.  Last I heard, the value of the church's property is in excess of $200 million.  So, our debt to value ratio is approx. 6.5%.  (Again, I understand the housing bubble has burst, and there probably wouldn't be a long line of people lining up to buy the Seifer Building...)

2.  Jack Schaap initially grew the church.  When the new auditorium was finished, we had 700 (I think) folding chairs setup in the auditorium, and it appeared we were desperately in need of the space.  Initially, the Sunday night crowd filled the main floor, and about 1/2 of the balcony.  Over time, the crowd grew to where on Sunday night, a few of the upper sections of the balcony were used on a regular basis.  I think many of the things he did  (for example, the missions teams) were very good.  I think that eventually growth itself became the goal, to where he was willing to consider the "contemporary" methods.  This is evidenced by his exalting non-denoms, his "why is God blessing them if what they're doing is wrong" philosophy, and his taking staff members to Willow Creek. 

3.  The church is probably the same size as it was it 2000.  His last 3 years, he drove much of the growth off.  That being said, about a year ago we held a Sunday evening service in the old auditorium.  The mezzanine (I'm guessing it sat approx. 350 packed and jammed) is now walled off, and the 2 side sections  (Old Bible Club & Pathfinder sections) are no longer there  (they probably sat around 200), so the auditorium probably seats 600 less than in did when Dr. Hyles passed away.  We put (I think) about 1,200 extra chairs in for the service, and it was pretty full... less than 600 seats empty.... Also, the main floor seats just under 4,000, and it probably has 3,000  on Sunday night.  That is about the capacity of the old auditorium.  Sorry if there are disagreements about this... just my logic

4.  Jack Schaap was under enormous pressure.  Whether this was his own doing, or that of the members, he had a mindset that he had to, at the minimum, keep the church and ministry the same size as under Dr. Hyles, and optimally double it.  I think in the early years, he experienced much growth, as is common under a new pastor for the first few years.  Those who had a "beef" with Dr. Hyles found him refreshing, while those who loved Dr. Hyles felt like he was going in the same direction.  It was a good situation to be in.

5.  Dr. Hyles left FBC in VERY good financial shape. Every building was debt free, we had $1 million in the surplus account, plus a lot of very generous benefactors, not to mention the multi million key man life insurance policy.  In his first 8 years, Jack Schaap had more money than he could imagine!  When the new building was finished, he had enough to pay off the new buiding, and pay every bill and salary for 3 months.  He wanted the money "liquid" as he was getting a better return on it than what the interest rate was... sadly, we listened....

6.  Pastor Wilkerson is very much like Dr. Hyles in many ways (his preaching is a little different).  He is with the people, the same way the "old timers" say Dr. Hyles was in the early years.  He is very thrifty with God's money.  He is a soul winner.  He loves people.  He is not looking to change the methods of the ministry, ie the bus ministry.  In fact, his wife was a bus captain throughout his pastorate in Long Beach, and several of his children are active in the bus ministry. 

7.  Our church is probably in the best financial sake in the past 12 years.  No, we don't have millions anymore, and the benefactors are gone, but for the first time, we are being careful with God's money, and paying all the bills without outside help.  In addition to this, we have put aside close to $400,000 for debt retirement in our Trust Fund.  Our general fund offerings our down from 3 years ago slightly, but it is enough.  Our missions giving is probably the best it's ever been.

I think the future of the college is brighter than the last 3 years, and financially the last 12.  I think God will enable us to refinance and completely pay off the debt in the next 5 years.

Sorry for the lengthy post... I know, there will be many disagreements with this post.  Please accept this in the spirit in which it is written.  Please pray for Pastor Wilkerson... especially his wife and children.

You are about to be ripped to shreds on this forum....but I stand with you as well!

 

[bgwilkinson]

They got a lot of old buildings too that need to be torn  down but they still use them for the Sunday schools and RU department. I dont know if their debt will ever be reversed.  The would save tons of money if the college was right by the church but they dont know how to think. Especially since there are so few students there now...why keep using the campus in crown point?

There are some old buildings that need to be demoed but none of them are used for SS school. The 6 story one is the worst. It can not be used, as it is not fit for occupancy.

The eggman helped to pay for all of the buildings that are in use, to be remodeled.

All the buildings we use are up to code and regularly pass fire and code enforcement inspection.

 

[Gonefishin]

A Few Observations

I have been associated with First Baptist Church for 29 years, and a member for the majority of those years.  I am making these observations from that standpoint:

1.  As far as I know, the only debt the church has is on the new Auditorium.  Built at a cost of $30 million, we owe approximately $13 million.  Last I heard, the value of the church's property is in excess of $200 million.  So, our debt to value ratio is approx. 6.5%.  (Again, I understand the housing bubble has burst, and there probably wouldn't be a long line of people lining up to buy the Seifer Building...)

2.  Jack Schaap initially grew the church.  When the new auditorium was finished, we had 700 (I think) folding chairs setup in the auditorium, and it appeared we were desperately in need of the space.  Initially, the Sunday night crowd filled the main floor, and about 1/2 of the balcony.  Over time, the crowd grew to where on Sunday night, a few of the upper sections of the balcony were used on a regular basis.  I think many of the things he did  (for example, the missions teams) were very good.  I think that eventually growth itself became the goal, to where he was willing to consider the "contemporary" methods.  This is evidenced by his exalting non-denoms, his "why is God blessing them if what they're doing is wrong" philosophy, and his taking staff members to Willow Creek. 

3.  The church is probably the same size as it was it 2000.  His last 3 years, he drove much of the growth off.  That being said, about a year ago we held a Sunday evening service in the old auditorium.  The mezzanine (I'm guessing it sat approx. 350 packed and jammed) is now walled off, and the 2 side sections  (Old Bible Club & Pathfinder sections) are no longer there  (they probably sat around 200), so the auditorium probably seats 600 less than in did when Dr. Hyles passed away.  We put (I think) about 1,200 extra chairs in for the service, and it was pretty full... less than 600 seats empty.... Also, the main floor seats just under 4,000, and it probably has 3,000  on Sunday night.  That is about the capacity of the old auditorium.  Sorry if there are disagreements about this... just my logic

4.  Jack Schaap was under enormous pressure.  Whether this was his own doing, or that of the members, he had a mindset that he had to, at the minimum, keep the church and ministry the same size as under Dr. Hyles, and optimally double it.  I think in the early years, he experienced much growth, as is common under a new pastor for the first few years.  Those who had a "beef" with Dr. Hyles found him refreshing, while those who loved Dr. Hyles felt like he was going in the same direction.  It was a good situation to be in.

5.  Dr. Hyles left FBC in VERY good financial shape. Every building was debt free, we had $1 million in the surplus account, plus a lot of very generous benefactors, not to mention the multi million key man life insurance policy.  In his first 8 years, Jack Schaap had more money than he could imagine!  When the new building was finished, he had enough to pay off the new buiding, and pay every bill and salary for 3 months.  He wanted the money "liquid" as he was getting a better return on it than what the interest rate was... sadly, we listened....

6.  Pastor Wilkerson is very much like Dr. Hyles in many ways (his preaching is a little different).  He is with the people, the same way the "old timers" say Dr. Hyles was in the early years.  He is very thrifty with God's money.  He is a soul winner.  He loves people.  He is not looking to change the methods of the ministry, ie the bus ministry.  In fact, his wife was a bus captain throughout his pastorate in Long Beach, and several of his children are active in the bus ministry. 

7.  Our church is probably in the best financial sake in the past 12 years.  No, we don't have millions anymore, and the benefactors are gone, but for the first time, we are being careful with God's money, and paying all the bills without outside help.  In addition to this, we have put aside close to $400,000 for debt retirement in our Trust Fund.  Our general fund offerings our down from 3 years ago slightly, but it is enough.  Our missions giving is probably the best it's ever been.

I think the future of the college is brighter than the last 3 years, and financially the last 12.  I think God will enable us to refinance and completely pay off the debt in the next 5 years.

Sorry for the lengthy post... I know, there will be many disagreements with this post.  Please accept this in the spirit in which it is written.  Please pray for Pastor Wilkerson... especially his wife and children.

Eddie?
This gets a C'mon man!

 

[prophet]

They got a lot of old buildings too that need to be torn  down but they still use them for the Sunday schools and RU department. I dont know if their debt will ever be reversed.  The would save tons of money if the college was right by the church but they dont know how to think. Especially since there are so few students there now...why keep using the campus in crown point?

There are some old buildings that need to be demoed but none of them are used for SS school. The 6 story one is the worst. It can not be used, as it is not fit for occupancy.

The eggman helped to pay for all of the buildings that are in use, to be remodeled.

All the buildings we use are up to code and regularly pass fire and code enforcement inspection.

If we would have just paid an architect to draw up the plans for the Seifer building's rehab, as the City code required, the building could've been re-done at whatever rate we deemed necessary.
But Schaap didn't like being told what to do by anybody.
So there, in the form of the tallest building of all its assets, lies a monument to FBCH and JS's pride.
And, no, the Church can't blame JS, when it holds the false "undershepherd" doctrine.  FBCH enabled, as a corp. body, everything that their Nicolaitan church-kings have done. As Israel demanded a king, and they were given one...a curse unto them...so is the church that claims one man is its God-called leader.

 

[WESLEY]

Haha... DEFINITELY not Lapina

 

[prophet]

Haha... DEFINITELY not Lapina

Dennis the Menace?

His neighbor?