Dress standards (honest, but kind, dialogue)

[mq6]

I am wanting to open up an honest dialogue on the subject of dress. Let me preface this with the fact that I am not wanting anyone to give me any answers as I have to come up with those on my own. I am a good little "fundie", I suppose. But for a while now I have been questioning why I do the things I do, namely my dress. I am not looking to judge, or be judged so please be kind, but for real I am not sure that I whole-heartedly agree with the no pants on women subject. I would welcome your oppinion. However, I would really like to hear more sound findings, scripture and experience. Somethings to think about and pray on. Oh and by the way, if this is not the right place to post this please forgive me and relocate it if necessary, or let me know and I will. Thank you! 

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

This should probably in the Fighting section, since people love to fight about it. 

I will tackle the issue of "dressing up for church", since we discussed that in the fighting forum a while back. 

Nobody dressed up for church until the early 19th century, because people generally only had one outfit to wear.  The industrial revolution created a middle class, where people could afford better clothes (and later mass production made clothes cheaper).  So some people started dressing up for Sunday services.  But it was resisted vigorously by some, especially the Methodists, I think, because dressing up was seen as worldly and prideful.  Wesley said, "Let your dress be cheap, as well as plain."  Some churches even resisted it so much that they refused to admit people who were dressed up. 

By the 1850s, people pretty much forgot about the whole pride/worldly issue and everyone started dressing up for Sunday services.  Regardless, you can see the concept of "dressing up for church" is a recent one. 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Why do people dress up for weddings and funerals? They do so out of respect for the couple or for the deceased. When we "dress up" for church, our motivation ought to be out of respect for God  and not to show everyone what nice clothes we can afford.

As to the pants issue, pants aren't really the issue in my opinion. Modesty is the issue. I've seen women at church dressed far more modestly in a pants suit than others in a skirt or dress.

Modesty is an issue of the heart. A modest lady will always dress modestly whether in pants, skirts, dresses or whatever.

The same goes for us men.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why do people dress up for weddings and funerals? They do so out of respect for the couple or for the deceased. When we "dress up" for church, our motivation ought to be out of respect for God  and not to show everyone what nice clothes we can afford.

As to the pants issue, pants aren't really the issue in my opinion. Modesty is the issue. I've seen women at church dressed far more modestly in a pants suit than others in a skirt or dress.

Modesty is an issue of the heart. A modest lady will always dress modestly whether in pants, skirts, dresses or whatever.

The same goes for us men.

And, as you can see, the attitude regarding what you wear has done a complete reversal from pre-early 19th century. 

Whereas you were once considered less pious if you dressed up, now you're considered less pious if you don't dress up. 

One can argue that this is not true, but when one says, our motivation for dressing up ought to be out of respect for God, the subtext is that if you don't dress up, you're not showing respect for God. 

 

[rsc2a]

Why do people dress up for weddings and funerals? They do so out of respect for the couple or for the deceased. When we "dress up" for church, our motivation ought to be out of respect for God  and not to show everyone what nice clothes we can afford.

As to the pants issue, pants aren't really the issue in my opinion. Modesty is the issue. I've seen women at church dressed far more modestly in a pants suit than others in a skirt or dress.

Modesty is an issue of the heart. A modest lady will always dress modestly whether in pants, skirts, dresses or whatever.

The same goes for us men.

And this ^^^ is the end result of using a terrible definition for church.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Why do people dress up for weddings and funerals? They do so out of respect for the couple or for the deceased. When we "dress up" for church, our motivation ought to be out of respect for God  and not to show everyone what nice clothes we can afford.

As to the pants issue, pants aren't really the issue in my opinion. Modesty is the issue. I've seen women at church dressed far more modestly in a pants suit than others in a skirt or dress.

Modesty is an issue of the heart. A modest lady will always dress modestly whether in pants, skirts, dresses or whatever.

The same goes for us men.

And this ^^^ is the end result of using a terrible definition for church.

Give this man a cigar.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

...when one says, our motivation for dressing up ought to be out of respect for God, the subtext is that if you don't dress up, you're not showing respect for God.

On the contrary, dressing up is not the issue either. The issue is giving God our best. If jeans and a tee shirt are our best, then we have given God our best. We give our best for our fellow man, why should we not give God our best as well?

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Why do people dress up for weddings and funerals? They do so out of respect for the couple or for the deceased. When we "dress up" for church, our motivation ought to be out of respect for God  and not to show everyone what nice clothes we can afford.

As to the pants issue, pants aren't really the issue in my opinion. Modesty is the issue. I've seen women at church dressed far more modestly in a pants suit than others in a skirt or dress.

Modesty is an issue of the heart. A modest lady will always dress modestly whether in pants, skirts, dresses or whatever.

The same goes for us men.

And this ^^^ is the end result of using a terrible definition for church.

Give this man a cigar.

Give this man a Bible. Maybe then he can offer some Scripture instead of vague comments.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

...when one says, our motivation for dressing up ought to be out of respect for God, the subtext is that if you don't dress up, you're not showing respect for God.

On the contrary, dressing up is not the issue either. The issue is giving God our best. If jeans and a tee shirt are our best, then we have given God our best. We give our best for our fellow man, why should we not give God our best as well?

Yes, cleanse the outside of the cup.  That's what God really cares about. 

Let me issue a challenge to you and to others who think like you.  Next Sunday, wear a ratty old T-Shirt, shorts and beat-up old sneakers with no socks to the service.  I dare you.  You won't, and I can tell you why.  You're not afraid of what God will think.  You're afraid of what everyone else who attends will think (and say).  Deny it all you want.  But we both know better. 

 

[rsc2a]

...when one says, our motivation for dressing up ought to be out of respect for God, the subtext is that if you don't dress up, you're not showing respect for God.

On the contrary, dressing up is not the issue either. The issue is giving God our best. If jeans and a tee shirt are our best, then we have given God our best. We give our best for our fellow man, why should we not give God our best as well?

God sees me naked in the shower.  He sees me sitting on the crapper.  Is that building you go to somehow holier than the city park?

Like I said, a terrible definition for church is driving your praxis. Well,  that and an implicit rejection of the omnipresence of God.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

...when one says, our motivation for dressing up ought to be out of respect for God, the subtext is that if you don't dress up, you're not showing respect for God.

On the contrary, dressing up is not the issue either. The issue is giving God our best. If jeans and a tee shirt are our best, then we have given God our best. We give our best for our fellow man, why should we not give God our best as well?

God sees me naked in the shower.  He sees me sitting on the crapper.  Is that building you go to somehow holier than the city park?

Like I said, a terrible definition for church is driving your praxis. Well,  that and an implicit rejection of the omnipresence of God.

Thank you.  I was going to go back and edit my last response to make this point, but you did it better. 

 

[subllibrm]

Standards that a person sets for themselves can be good. Imposed standards from one to another are rarely, if ever,  good.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Standards that a person sets for themselves can be good. Imposed standards from one to another are rarely, if ever,  good.

If you set your own standards for what you wear to Sunday service, and then say it's out of respect for God, then you're saying that God only pays attention to what you wear to Sunday service.  The rest of the day on Sunday, as well as the rest of the week, God doesn't care what you wear. 

Now, isn't that just a bit silly? 

 

[Citadel of Truth]

Standards that a person sets for themselves can be good. Imposed standards from one to another are rarely, if ever,  good.

If you set your own standards for what you wear to Sunday service, and then say it's out of respect for God, then you're saying that God only pays attention to what you wear to Sunday service.  The rest of the day on Sunday, as well as the rest of the week, God doesn't care what you wear. 

Now, isn't that just a bit silly?

That's your own personal "logical" conclusion. Any Christian with a  desire to know the "whole counsel of God" would not consider this as the logical end of this issue.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

Standards that a person sets for themselves can be good. Imposed standards from one to another are rarely, if ever,  good.

If you set your own standards for what you wear to Sunday service, and then say it's out of respect for God, then you're saying that God only pays attention to what you wear to Sunday service.  The rest of the day on Sunday, as well as the rest of the week, God doesn't care what you wear. 

Now, isn't that just a bit silly?

That's your own personal "logical" conclusion. Any Christian with a  desire to know the "whole counsel of God" would not consider this as the logical end of this issue.

Really?  And what is the logical end of this issue? 

I think we can easily get to the bottom of this.  Do you dress up in order to pray? 

 

[subllibrm]

Standards that a person sets for themselves can be good. Imposed standards from one to another are rarely, if ever,  good.

If you set your own standards for what you wear to Sunday service, and then say it's out of respect for God, then you're saying that God only pays attention to what you wear to Sunday service.  The rest of the day on Sunday, as well as the rest of the week, God doesn't care what you wear. 

Now, isn't that just a bit silly?

That's your own personal "logical" conclusion. Any Christian with a  desire to know the "whole counsel of God" would not consider this as the logical end of this issue.

Since neither of you appear to have understood what I wrote I will assume that you are both using me as a proxy to make a point.

Standards. Fences. Limits. Boundaries. Self expectations. None of these are bad in and of themselves. As David did, I pray that God will show me where the weakness and sin is in my life. In Christ I will rest in His Grace as the way to grow in holiness. And with those two things working together there will be things I don't/won't do. Places I don't/won't go. This is all part of working out my salvation. But once I cross the line to where I impose any of these things upon you or another I am guilty of legalism.

Now to the point mater made. A week or so ago we gave Alayman plenty of grief over the question of knowledge/emotion in worship. The basic theme went who is he to question whether my worship is knowledge that leads to emotions or emotions that are in tune with knowledge. In other words, how I worship (my emotional connection to God) is not indicative of any of the charges he was making (shallow, weak, uninformed). Soaring strings or emotional story songs that touch a sensitive part of my heart have a place in worship. By the same token, if a brother "feels" that wearing a tie presents himself more respectfully before God (his emotional touch-point) then who are we to question his maturity with that as our only evidence. And if dressing "up" is indicative of some sort of haughty pride then I can only assume that the antidote to that would be sackcloth and ashes. Which brings me back to ...

Standards are personal. I can explain why we home-schooled, where and why we drew specific boundaries for our kids, limited our activities and so on. I can point to events and situations where God led us to make decisions that seemed odd to our friends and family. What I can't do is tell you that you must do it the same way to be acceptable before God.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled activity of talking past each other.

 

[Citadel of Truth]

I think we can easily get to the bottom of this.  Do you dress up in order to pray?

You are too deeply entrenched in your own human reasoning to make an intelligent biblical argument.

When I pray in my personal quiet time, I am not in the world "letting my light shine." I am not, at that moment, trying to be "the salt of the earth." Of course God doesn't check my clothing at the door as I "come boldly to the throne" to pray in my private prayer closet.

When I head to church, the world around me, who I have been left here to try and reach (I apologize Calvinists), are to see my good works (Mat. 5:16). Not to bring me glory, but to "glorify our Father which is in heaven." 

While it is true that "God looks on the heart" (I Sam. 16:7), it is equally true that "man looks on the outward appearance." Only a selfish Christian would declare, "It doesn't matter to God what I wear so, regardless of what anyone else thinks, I'm going to wear whatever I want."

That totally goes against the New Testament prohibition of creating a stumbling block.     

 

[rsc2a]

[quote author=subllibrm]Standards are personal. I can explain why we home-schooled, where and why we drew specific boundaries for our kids, limited our activities and so on. I can point to events and situations where God led us to make decisions that seemed odd to our friends and family. What I can't do is tell you that you must do it the same way to be acceptable before God.[/quote]

Yet when one's standard are derived from terrible theology, the mature believer had an obligation to correct the immature believer...and Paul is pretty clear that those enslaved to the exceptions of the world are the more immature* believers.

For example, one who avoids alcohol because their AA group thinks it is good practice is showing wisdom. One who insists in wearing a tie to church because God closes His eyes when that individual is showering is showing something, but I wouldn't call it wisdom. 

* Stated with a recognition that we all are weak in some areas.

 

[Binaca Chugger]

wow.  Did you guys ever get off topic quick.

Welcome mq6.  Thanks for joining and starting a thread.  If you browse around this forum (Try using the search feature) you will discover that your topic is one of the favorites that is repeatedly debated here.  If you are a "good little fundie," you have already been shown all of the verses that are typically claimed to reference the need for dress standards.  So, Mrs. Chugger and I were in your situation also.  Good little fundies who did what they were told and admonished others to do likewise.  Then God rebuked us.

Dress for both men and women is all about modesty.  I believe we have the instruction for our dress to be modest, appropriate and gender specific.  It is a standard (manner of life intended to glorify God) that each of us must determine for ourselves.  Thus, I cannot tell you what you should wear, that is a decision between you, your spouse and your God.  You should be willing to consider some trusted people to help you determine what might be modest, since many of us do not see ourselves the same way others do.

Considering modesty, I believe we can ask the simple questions:
- Does this draw attention to me?  If so, what kind of attention?
- Is my body accentuated, or my spirit?
- Is my body properly covered or revealing?
- Does this associate me with certain anti-Christian sub-cultures?  (Fads are ever changing)
- Is this clothing gender specific?
- Is this appropriate for the activities that are planned?
- Is this clothing appropriate for the group I will be with?
- Will this clothing be an offense to others with whom I will be today?

If the only reason you wear what you do is so that others will think you are a good little fundie, you are pleasing men, not God.  If you have a deep conviction that your chosen attire is glorifying God and being a testimony to Him, don't let anyone dissuade you from your purpose.

Regarding spousal approval, please don't think me a caveman.  I have asked Mrs. Chugger to not wear certain items for certain occasions.  Some of these, are just simply my preference of how I like the way she looks.  I rarely leave the house without asking my wife if my outfit looks okay.  Especially when we are going to see her family, I will ask: "Is there any particular outfit you would like me to wear?"  She often puts together some trendy outfit that I think looks dumb, but I wear it because that what she prefers.

 

[subllibrm]

Is it comfortable to wear? That is the first thing on my dress standards list.  8)