Does your church follow these new rules for successful ministry?

[Tarheel Baptist]

http://www.churchleaders.com/mobile/pastors/pastor-articles/162032-discover-the-new-rules-for-ministry-today.html?p=1

Or are you old fashioned?

This article goes to the heart of the tension present in ministry today between the contemporary and traditional models of ministry.

What do you think?

 

[The Glory Land]

http://www.churchleaders.com/mobile/pastors/pastor-articles/162032-discover-the-new-rules-for-ministry-today.html?p=1

Or are you old fashioned?

This article goes to the heart of the tension present in ministry today between the contemporary and traditional models of ministry.

What do you think?

The new ways are not good, contemporary. Many of are churches are opening there doors to evil, starting with the Mega Churches.  I'm old fashioned or traditional...

 

[Miller]

http://www.churchleaders.com/mobile/pastors/pastor-articles/162032-discover-the-new-rules-for-ministry-today.html?p=1

Or are you old fashioned?

This article goes to the heart of the tension present in ministry today between the contemporary and traditional models of ministry.

What do you think?

The new ways are not good, contemporary. Many of are churches are opening there doors to evil, starting with the Mega Churches.  I'm old fashioned or traditional...

Oh puhleese

New rule #2, "Care, really care, about people." You mean to tell me it is wrong or sinful for a church to care about people?

New rule #5, "Speak bluntly. " I guess TLG likes those pink lemonade sipping sissy preachers who speak to please people instead of speaking truth.

New rule #6, "Involve the congregation in missions projects." By all means, TGL, don't allow your church to become involved with missions. I guess the Great Commission is not so great after all.

New rule #8, "Be authentic. " Why do that when the old way of being a phoney is so much more Scriptural?

In another post I said that to arbitrarily throw away 1000's of years of church history and Christian teaching is short-sighted. The fact of the matter is we need to be balanced. Not everything that is new is bad, and not everything that is old is good.

 

[Izdaari]

We follow a lot more of the new rules given in the article than the old ones. But we are old fashioned, in that we value some 2000 years of Christian tradition. The Anglican and Lutheran church traditions we're part of date back to long before Charles Finney and the American Revival Movement, to long before the American way of doing church was established, and most of those "old rules" seem pretty new-fangled to me.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

http://www.churchleaders.com/mobile/pastors/pastor-articles/162032-discover-the-new-rules-for-ministry-today.html?p=1

Or are you old fashioned?

This article goes to the heart of the tension present in ministry today between the contemporary and traditional models of ministry.

What do you think?

The new ways are not good, contemporary. Many of are churches are opening there doors to evil, starting with the Mega Churches.  I'm old fashioned or traditional...

Oh puhleese

New rule #2, "Care, really care, about people." You mean to tell me it is wrong or sinful for a church to care about people?

New rule #5, "Speak bluntly. " I guess TLG likes those pink lemonade sipping sissy preachers who speak to please people instead of speaking truth.

New rule #6, "Involve the congregation in missions projects." By all means, TGL, don't allow your church to become involved with missions. I guess the Great Commission is not so great after all.

New rule #8, "Be authentic. " Why do that when the old way of being a phoney is so much more Scriptural?

In another post I said that to arbitrarily throw away 1000's of years of church history and Christian teaching is short-sighted. The fact of the matter is we need to be balanced. Not everything that is new is bad, and not everything that is old is good.

I totally agree!
The culture is rapidly changing and therefore the tension between tradition and so called contemporary methods is magnified today. Not everything old is good and everything new isn't bad.
The reverse is also true.

A church must understand their own culture as well as the culture of the community they are trying to reach in order to develop effective methods.

I disagree with points from both lists.... I also agree with some things on each list.
IMHO, only a fool would arbitrarily adopt or discount either list in its entirety!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

It seems that the author worded the old rules so that they are in essence, a straw man.
For instance, doctrinal correctness isn't a negative.
And programs aren't wrong or ineffective per we.

He is a little disingenuious in his presentation of the old rules, IMHO!

 

[Izdaari]

It seems that the author worded the old rules so that they are in essence, a straw man.
For instance, doctrinal correctness isn't a negative.
And programs aren't wrong or ineffective per we.

He is a little disingenuious in his presentation of the old rules, IMHO!

That's true. He also based his "old ways" on the Charles Finney American Revival way of "doing church", which is a much newer tradition than than the old ways we Anglicans and Lutherans follow. (Yes, I am both. My new church formally has both affiliations.)

 

[Bob H]

http://www.churchleaders.com/mobile/pastors/pastor-articles/162032-discover-the-new-rules-for-ministry-today.html?p=1

Or are you old fashioned?

This article goes to the heart of the tension present in ministry today between the contemporary and traditional models of ministry.

What do you think?

I think the author has a ax to grind. But I will say this about first point. Doctrinal preaching has gone by the wayside in America. Doctrine divides so don't emphasize it. You can believe or deny anything and be saved. Paul was right in II Tim 4:2 . So as a general rule you can have a larger crowd by tickling ears

 

[Izdaari]

Agreed that teaching actual doctrine is a good thing.

 

[Bob H]

He is a little disingenuious

No joke!

 

[Just John]

I think the author has a ax to grind. But I will say this about first point. Doctrinal preaching has gone by the wayside in America. Doctrine divides so don't emphasize it. You can believe or deny anything and be saved. Paul was right in II Tim 4:2 . So as a general rule you can have a larger crowd by tickling ears

After reading the initial list I questioned what his issue was with that as well but when juxtaposed with list #2 I better understood where he was coming from.  He could have said it better though. Good doctrine is of course essential but if it isn't taught in a relevant manner, i.e. with APPLICATION, then it is not taught best. It is the application that makes it relevant and that is where SOME who refuse to bend to contemporary times are lacking IMO.

 

[Bob H]

I think the author has a ax to grind. But I will say this about first point. Doctrinal preaching has gone by the wayside in America. Doctrine divides so don't emphasize it. You can believe or deny anything and be saved. Paul was right in II Tim 4:2 . So as a general rule you can have a larger crowd by tickling ears

After reading the initial list I questioned what his issue was with that as well but when juxtaposed with list #2 I better understood where he was coming from.  He could have said it better though. Good doctrine is of course essential but if it isn't taught in a relevant manner, i.e. with APPLICATION, then it is not taught best. It is the application that makes it relevant and that is where SOME who refuse to bend to contemporary times are lacking IMO.

Apparently I not that smart  I'm not sure what your point was. Application should always be a part of the "sermon Structure" no matter whether the sermon is doctrinal or topical in its nature.

 

[Just John]

I think the author has a ax to grind. But I will say this about first point. Doctrinal preaching has gone by the wayside in America. Doctrine divides so don't emphasize it. You can believe or deny anything and be saved. Paul was right in II Tim 4:2 . So as a general rule you can have a larger crowd by tickling ears

After reading the initial list I questioned what his issue was with that as well but when juxtaposed with list #2 I better understood where he was coming from.  He could have said it better though. Good doctrine is of course essential but if it isn't taught in a relevant manner, i.e. with APPLICATION, then it is not taught best. It is the application that makes it relevant and that is where SOME who refuse to bend to contemporary times are lacking IMO.

Apparently I not that smart  I'm not sure what your point was. Application should always be a part of the "sermon Structure" no matter whether the sermon is doctrinal or topical in its nature.

Oh I'm with you. But I have heard plenty of sermons that were heavy on doctrine and light on application. It's the difference between hearing a sermon on Sunday and learning how to put it in action the rest of the week.

 

[Bob H]

I think the author has a ax to grind. But I will say this about first point. Doctrinal preaching has gone by the wayside in America. Doctrine divides so don't emphasize it. You can believe or deny anything and be saved. Paul was right in II Tim 4:2 . So as a general rule you can have a larger crowd by tickling ears

After reading the initial list I questioned what his issue was with that as well but when juxtaposed with list #2 I better understood where he was coming from.  He could have said it better though. Good doctrine is of course essential but if it isn't taught in a relevant manner, i.e. with APPLICATION, then it is not taught best. It is the application that makes it relevant and that is where SOME who refuse to bend to contemporary times are lacking IMO.

Apparently I not that smart  I'm not sure what your point was. Application should always be a part of the "sermon Structure" no matter whether the sermon is doctrinal or topical in its nature.

Oh I'm with you. But I have heard plenty of sermons that were heavy on doctrine and light on application. It's the difference between hearing a sermon on Sunday and learning how to put it in action the rest of the week.

So have I but that doesn't have nuttin to do with the "new rules" "old rules" article written above. A "new rules" preacher can preach a sorry sermon just as well as a "old rule" dude. TB was right when he said... "He is a little disingenuious in his presentation of the old rules". {And the new ones also} That was my point.

 

[Just John]

I think the author has a ax to grind. But I will say this about first point. Doctrinal preaching has gone by the wayside in America. Doctrine divides so don't emphasize it. You can believe or deny anything and be saved. Paul was right in II Tim 4:2 . So as a general rule you can have a larger crowd by tickling ears

After reading the initial list I questioned what his issue was with that as well but when juxtaposed with list #2 I better understood where he was coming from.  He could have said it better though. Good doctrine is of course essential but if it isn't taught in a relevant manner, i.e. with APPLICATION, then it is not taught best. It is the application that makes it relevant and that is where SOME who refuse to bend to contemporary times are lacking IMO.

Apparently I not that smart  I'm not sure what your point was. Application should always be a part of the "sermon Structure" no matter whether the sermon is doctrinal or topical in its nature.

Oh I'm with you. But I have heard plenty of sermons that were heavy on doctrine and light on application. It's the difference between hearing a sermon on Sunday and learning how to put it in action the rest of the week.

So have I but that doesn't have nuttin to do with the "new rules" "old rules" article written above. A "new rules" preacher can preach a sorry sermon just as well as a "old rule" dude. TB was right when he said... "He is a little disingenuious in his presentation of the old rules". {And the new ones also} That was my point.

I don't disagree he might be a little  disingenuous but I don't think it invalidates a point he is trying to make.

 

[jimmudcatgrant]

http://www.churchleaders.com/mobile/pastors/pastor-articles/162032-discover-the-new-rules-for-ministry-today.html?p=1

Or are you old fashioned?

This article goes to the heart of the tension present in ministry today between the contemporary and traditional models of ministry.

What do you think?

I think the mission of the church is to reach the world with the gospel and to disciple believers. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation.  Not our methods, nor invitations, nor programs we may have.  With that being said, love is the key.  I know it has been said many times, and I don't know who first said it:  "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care."  So I agree that you can't fake real concern for people, but you still need the gospel for them to be saved. Doctrine is very important in discipleship imo.  I know the more I learned about God and what He had done and was doing for me in the doctrines of justification, imputation, sanctification, glorification,  etc, etc, the more I loved Him.  The study of theology is very important imo.  Not just to say we know this and that, but to know God, who He really is.  It is amazing to me that some people have been saved 20 years or more, and they don't know anything about God.  One of the first study bibles I grew to love was the King James Study Bible by Nelson.  It first came out as the Liberty Study Bible, and it contains annotations for a lot of the great doctrines and where they are found in the bible.

I don't know if the above is old fashioned or what, but the church I go to has to preach and teach the gospel and the great doctrines of the bible with concern and compassion and authority.  Having programs that try and reach people is fine, but the key to me is the preaching and teaching.  Everything else falls in place if Christ is lifted up.
Just my two cents worth.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I think the author has a ax to grind. But I will say this about first point. Doctrinal preaching has gone by the wayside in America. Doctrine divides so don't emphasize it. You can believe or deny anything and be saved. Paul was right in II Tim 4:2 . So as a general rule you can have a larger crowd by tickling ears

After reading the initial list I questioned what his issue was with that as well but when juxtaposed with list #2 I better understood where he was coming from.  He could have said it better though. Good doctrine is of course essential but if it isn't taught in a relevant manner, i.e. with APPLICATION, then it is not taught best. It is the application that makes it relevant and that is where SOME who refuse to bend to contemporary times are lacking IMO.

Apparently I not that smart  I'm not sure what your point was. Application should always be a part of the "sermon Structure" no matter whether the sermon is doctrinal or topical in its nature.

Oh I'm with you. But I have heard plenty of sermons that were heavy on doctrine and light on application. It's the difference between hearing a sermon on Sunday and learning how to put it in action the rest of the week.

Application, IMHO, separates the pulpit from the classroom.
The other side of the coin, are the preachers that read one verse, out of context and build an entire sermon on it......drives me crazy.

As to the old rules and new rules, I am a stickler for sound doctrine, which some who follow the new rules will overlook.
An example is Steven Furtick who invited TD Jakes to preach at his Code Orange Revival!

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

He is a little disingenuious

No joke!

Just trying to be a little PC....you know how dogmatism offends some people......

 

[ALAYMAN]

Love, given at the expense or to the detriment of sound doctrinal truth, is not really love at all.  Worship is in spirit, and truth.  One without the other is like faith without repentance.  And when worship leaders make people the center focus of their ministry rather than God they're reversing the proper paradigm for our existence, as we're created to glorify him, not merely meet felt needs.  Will we be concerned about other's needs in the course of ministry? Youbetcha, but lets not get the cart before the horse and talk about service to people coming before worship and knowledge of God who is the reason we serve.

 

[Izdaari]

I think the author has a ax to grind. But I will say this about first point. Doctrinal preaching has gone by the wayside in America. Doctrine divides so don't emphasize it. You can believe or deny anything and be saved. Paul was right in II Tim 4:2 . So as a general rule you can have a larger crowd by tickling ears

After reading the initial list I questioned what his issue was with that as well but when juxtaposed with list #2 I better understood where he was coming from.  He could have said it better though. Good doctrine is of course essential but if it isn't taught in a relevant manner, i.e. with APPLICATION, then it is not taught best. It is the application that makes it relevant and that is where SOME who refuse to bend to contemporary times are lacking IMO.

Apparently I not that smart  I'm not sure what your point was. Application should always be a part of the "sermon Structure" no matter whether the sermon is doctrinal or topical in its nature.

Oh I'm with you. But I have heard plenty of sermons that were heavy on doctrine and light on application. It's the difference between hearing a sermon on Sunday and learning how to put it in action the rest of the week.

Application, IMHO, separates the pulpit from the classroom.
The other side of the coin, are the preachers that read one verse, out of context and build an entire sermon on it......drives me crazy.

As to the old rules and new rules, I am a stickler for sound doctrine, which some who follow the new rules will overlook.
An example is Steven Furtick who invited TD Jakes to preach at his Code Orange Revival!

I wouldn't invite Jakes either. The man can preach for sure, but he's not trinitarian and he leans WoF, both heresies.