Dealing With Gay Divorce (or not)

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subllibrm

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So what will be the proper advice to John when he gets saved and is "married" to Tom? John wants to honor Jesus and live for Him. He also has a commitment to Tom. And so that I'm not accused of goal posting, let's add right from the get go that John and Tom have two kids (from surrogates) 6 and 9.

What are the needful things for John to do before we let him join the church? Divorce Tom? Abandon the kids? Fight for custody? Walk away? Stay married and faithful but celibate?

Well that should be enough worms to get this fishing trip going.  8)
 
Castor Muscular said:
Is Tom saved, too?  Advice from whom?
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Um, okay to fill in those almost impossible to discern points  ::)

No, Tom is not saved.

The church that John wants to join.

I hope that clears things up.
 
Well if a church does not believe in gay marriage, how can they advice him? They cannot give advice about divorce  to something they would not allow in the first place. Hope that makes sense.
If he is saved and wants to be baptized, I see no scriptural reasons to not allow him that.

 
subllibrm said:
So what will be the proper advice to John when he gets saved and is "married" to Tom? John wants to honor Jesus and live for Him. He also has a commitment to Tom. And so that I'm not accused of goal posting, let's add right from the get go that John and Tom have two kids (from surrogates) 6 and 9.

What are the needful things for John to do before we let him join the church? Divorce Tom? Abandon the kids? Fight for custody? Walk away? Stay married and faithful but celibate?

Well that should be enough worms to get this fishing trip going.  8)
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You know, I wish I could just go to heaven and get out of this place.
I abso-stinkinly cannot believe that we have to even think about these ludicrous thoughts now.
 
The Apostle Paul dealt with this in the Corinthian church. Though we do not have specific examples, Paul does say of them in 1 Corinthians 6:11 that "some of them were."

Deal with them as an unbeliever. The needful thing to do is to work through the passage with him and his salvation. Church membership would not even be a part of the discussion.
 
[quote author=subllibrm]What are the needful things for John to do before we let him join the church? [/quote]

I'll leave that for the elders of the church to decide, but my thoughts...

[quote author=subllibrm]Divorce Tom?[/quote]

In a Scriptural sense, they were never married. Divorce doesn't even make sense. In a legal sense, there may be benefits to remaining "married" and I think it is a situational call.

[quote author=subllibrm]Abandon the kids?[/quote]

Absolutely not. In fact, if this was considered, I'd have other major issues.

[quote author=subllibrm]Fight for custody?[/quote]

Is joint custody an option?

[quote author=subllibrm]Walk away?[/quote]

Hard to do with kids involved.

[quote author=subllibrm]Stay married and faithful but celibate? [/quote]

A possibility. Married in the legal sense, but maintaining separate households likely. A joint household might (and I've very hesitant here) be a consideration, but it seems like that's a far cry from fleeing temptation.
 
FSSL said:
The Apostle Paul dealt with this in the Corinthian church. Though we do not have specific examples, Paul does say of them in 1 Corinthians 6:11 that "some of them were."

Deal with them as an unbeliever. The needful thing to do is to work through the passage with him and his salvation. Church membership would not even be a part of the discussion.
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A good point, but I was going on the assumption that John was legitimately converted.
 
rsc2a said:
FSSL said:
The Apostle Paul dealt with this in the Corinthian church. Though we do not have specific examples, Paul does say of them in 1 Corinthians 6:11 that "some of them were."

Deal with them as an unbeliever. The needful thing to do is to work through the passage with him and his salvation. Church membership would not even be a part of the discussion.
Click to expand...

A good point, but I was going on the assumption that John was legitimately converted.
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If it weren't so hard for some people to understand the shorthand "saved" in the context the need to determine the legitimacy of his conversion would be assumed.  8)
 
A sodomite union, whatever it may be considered in the eyes of the State, does not fit the Biblical definition of marriage, so it follows that a "divorce" in this instance would not fit the Biblical definition of divorce.  The believer needs to flee Sodom and not look back.  Any remnant of the "union" that never really existed needs to be dissolved.

Dealing with the kids is another issue, and a complex one.  What tangled webs we weave when God's Law we do not receive.  Wise counsel would be needed here. While I can't say that it would be wrong to pursue custody, I do believe that a wise, truly-converted man would seek to have the children placed into a real family with a real father and a real mother.  That is God's design.
 
Reformed Guy said:
A sodomite union, whatever it may be considered in the eyes of the State, does not fit the Biblical definition of marriage, so it follows that a "divorce" in this instance would not fit the Biblical definition of divorce.  The believer needs to flee Sodom and not look back.  Any remnant of the "union" that never really existed needs to be dissolved.

Dealing with the kids is another issue, and a complex one.  What tangled webs we weave when God's Law we do not receive.  Wise counsel would be needed here. While I can't say that it would be wrong to pursue custody, I do believe that a wise, truly-converted man would seek to have the children placed into a real family with a real father and a real mother.  That is God's design.
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Hey, I appreciate your actually engaging the OP. Too many people addicted to rabbit trails and nit picking around here.

I agree that the "marriage" is pretty straight forward. It won't be pretty in the news media for the first saved man and his church that go through this but it is the only real answer.

The kids is where it will get really sticky. The placement option will not be in play if the unsaved "husband" is not also a convert. And may not be even if he is. Yup, sticky!
 
subllibrm asked:

So what will be the proper advice to John when he gets saved and is "married" to Tom? John wants to honor Jesus and live for Him. He also has a commitment to Tom. And so that I'm not accused of goal posting, let's add right from the get go that John and Tom have two kids (from surrogates) 6 and 9.

What are the needful things for John to do before we let him join the church? Divorce Tom? Abandon the kids? Fight for custody? Walk away? Stay married and faithful but celibate?

The last option is off the table, simply. In the eyes of the church, a marriage cannot exist between two men, so they can't legitimately be said to have been married at all.

Of course, the state has other ideas, in those jurisdictions that recognize same-sex unions, and so the eyes of the law see something different than the eyes of God.

If an annulment is impossible, then I would counsel an amicable divorce - ideally, with all the details of division of property, custody, etc. settled between the two of them before taking the matter to the court.

Custody of the children is also a thorny issue. Like it or not, two children have been raised by two men, one or the other of whom is their natural father, according to your scenario. I would think that the best course of action would be to grant custody of each child to his natural parent (again, ideally something that can be worked out outside of the courts). Not the best solution, perhaps, but I think probably the best solution available under the circumstances.

Either way, remaining in the so-called marriage is not an option. A Christian man, if that is truly what John is, cannot remain in a sexually immoral relationship. It belies his profession.
 
Ransom said:
subllibrm asked:

So what will be the proper advice to John when he gets saved and is "married" to Tom? John wants to honor Jesus and live for Him. He also has a commitment to Tom. And so that I'm not accused of goal posting, let's add right from the get go that John and Tom have two kids (from surrogates) 6 and 9.

What are the needful things for John to do before we let him join the church? Divorce Tom? Abandon the kids? Fight for custody? Walk away? Stay married and faithful but celibate?

The last option is off the table, simply. In the eyes of the church, a marriage cannot exist between two men, so they can't legitimately be said to have been married at all.

Of course, the state has other ideas, in those jurisdictions that recognize same-sex unions, and so the eyes of the law see something different than the eyes of God.

If an annulment is impossible, then I would counsel an amicable divorce - ideally, with all the details of division of property, custody, etc. settled between the two of them before taking the matter to the court.

Custody of the children is also a thorny issue. Like it or not, two children have been raised by two men, one or the other of whom is their natural father, according to your scenario. I would think that the best course of action would be to grant custody of each child to his natural parent (again, ideally something that can be worked out outside of the courts). Not the best solution, perhaps, but I think probably the best solution available under the circumstances.

Either way, remaining in the so-called marriage is not an option. A Christian man, if that is truly what John is, cannot remain in a sexually immoral relationship. It belies his profession.
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Thanks Scott, this was the kid of thing I was looking for.

I believe we are quickly headed for just such scenarios. I also believe that the state will not look kindly upon the church that counsels the saved partner to turn from the wickedness of their relationship. The preaching against homosexual sin will not be the lever used against the church. It will be how the church responds to scenarios like this. The church that stands for righteousness in a case like this will be vilified and likely persecuted. Are we ready to take that stand?
 
A two parent family to raise the children is usually best. In some States, this can be arranged with a stipend offered to offset living costs after taking some parenting/foster classes. In California it's called Kinship. Hopefully visits with parents would not be court ordered, but optional at the child's discretion.
 
I forgot to add...a godly couple at church could be chosen as parents and paid the stipend (also called a subsidy) to foster and/or adopt them.
 
Let give you a real world situation. I know a woman who is. I've known her for years. A few years ago she and her whatever went to MA and got married. The relationship lasted about two years and then they split. She recently called me about a divorce. It seems she wants to get remarried ( to somebody else) I told her that since TN doesn't recognize gay marriage she couldn't get divorced here and since she was not a resident of MA or any other state that recoganizes gay marriage she couldn't get divorced there either. At the moment she was stuck in limbo.


ChuckBob
 
subllibrm said:
Ransom said:
subllibrm asked:

So what will be the proper advice to John when he gets saved and is "married" to Tom? John wants to honor Jesus and live for Him. He also has a commitment to Tom. And so that I'm not accused of goal posting, let's add right from the get go that John and Tom have two kids (from surrogates) 6 and 9.

What are the needful things for John to do before we let him join the church? Divorce Tom? Abandon the kids? Fight for custody? Walk away? Stay married and faithful but celibate?

The last option is off the table, simply. In the eyes of the church, a marriage cannot exist between two men, so they can't legitimately be said to have been married at all.

Of course, the state has other ideas, in those jurisdictions that recognize same-sex unions, and so the eyes of the law see something different than the eyes of God.

If an annulment is impossible, then I would counsel an amicable divorce - ideally, with all the details of division of property, custody, etc. settled between the two of them before taking the matter to the court.

Custody of the children is also a thorny issue. Like it or not, two children have been raised by two men, one or the other of whom is their natural father, according to your scenario. I would think that the best course of action would be to grant custody of each child to his natural parent (again, ideally something that can be worked out outside of the courts). Not the best solution, perhaps, but I think probably the best solution available under the circumstances.

Either way, remaining in the so-called marriage is not an option. A Christian man, if that is truly what John is, cannot remain in a sexually immoral relationship. It belies his profession.
Click to expand...

Thanks Scott, this was the kid of thing I was looking for.

I believe we are quickly headed for just such scenarios. I also believe that the state will not look kindly upon the church that counsels the saved partner to turn from the wickedness of their relationship. The preaching against homosexual sin will not be the lever used against the church. It will be how the church responds to scenarios like this. The church that stands for righteousness in a case like this will be vilified and likely persecuted. Are we ready to take that stand?
Click to expand...
I believe you are right, and I see this issue bringing back persecution to U.S. Believers.  I saw it coming, and prepared 20 years ago. I take the stance that no sodomite can be saved, from Romans 1, and therefore they can't be voted in.  I'm sure that so called 'brethren' will be the driving force behind any persecution I might face over this.  I know I'm taking the easy way out, but it'll come back to bite me later.

Anishinabe

 
When I taught the missions students at HAC, I told them quote the death penalty for Sodomy verses every public service that a visitor shows up in, to 'thin the herd'.

Anishinabe

 
prophet said:
I take the stance that no sodomite can be saved, from Romans 1, and therefore they can't be voted in.
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While I agree that a homosexual is not a believer, I reject the idea that they cannot be saved. Paul also said in 1 Corinthians 6 that some of the believers WERE (past tense) homosexuals. Hoping you clarify your position.
 
[quote author=prophet]I take the stance that no sodomite can be saved, from Romans 1, and therefore they can't be voted in. [/quote]

Homosexual behavior is the one thing bigger than the cross or something?

(Plus the verses that pretty explicitly state the exact opposite of what you just claimed to believe.)
 
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