current FBC baptism numbers

[tobytyler]

With FBC's new pastor and his discipleship program being implemented, can anyone offer insight how this has affected the number of baptisms at the church.  I try to view their live stream services, but it usually turns off before the reading of the names and the baptisms.

I know that during JH's 80's and 90's, FBC regularly had over 10,000 annual baptisms. Even back in the 60's, Bro Hyles was having dozens baptized every Sunday.  I just was looking through Bro Hyles' book, "Let's Use Forms and Letters", and in the book is a copy of FBC's church bulletin dated Oct 24, 1965, and it states that 36 were baptized the previous Sunday.  Later in the book is a copy of a newsletter for the deaf called "Glad Tidings", and it states that 12 were baptized on 9-26-65 and 36 baptized on 10-3-65.  (I'm finding many memories and good times at FBC that I've forgotten recently.)

Just curious how the present baptism are.

 

[bgwilkinson]

With FBC's new pastor and his discipleship program being implemented, can anyone offer insight how this has affected the number of baptisms at the church.  I try to view their live stream services, but it usually turns off before the reading of the names and the baptisms.

I know that during JH's 80's and 90's, FBC regularly had over 10,000 annual baptisms. Even back in the 60's, Bro Hyles was having dozens baptized every Sunday.  I just was looking through Bro Hyles' book, "Let's Use Forms and Letters", and in the book is a copy of FBC's church bulletin dated Oct 24, 1965, and it states that 36 were baptized the previous Sunday.  Later in the book is a copy of a newsletter for the deaf called "Glad Tidings", and it states that 12 were baptized on 9-26-65 and 36 baptized on 10-3-65.  (I'm finding many memories and good times at FBC that I've forgotten recently.)

Just curious how the present baptism are.

The raw numbers of baptisms are down, but the number of baptisms of saved people is way up.

There are baptisms at both the AM and PM service in the English Auditorium, there are also baptisms in the Spanish Auditorium every service.

There has been a sea change away from a numbers based industrial type of ministry that was bringing in many people, however the number of false conversions was enormous. This resulted in many unsaved members that did not stick. Many of the numbers counted in our 25,000 baptism years were the same persons baptized more than once. I had these in my SS class, most of them had no convincing profession of faith they simply were not believers, they were depending on their soul-winner for the assurance of salvation.

The emphasis now is on getting people saved, baptized and taught to win others. This approach is new for us. It does not result in great reports to brag on for a national audience but I believe it is more pleasing to the LORD.

If the numbers that were reported over the years were true, we should have attendances of 100,000 to 200,000 every week. It just did not happen. It would have been wonderful if it had been true.

If one is reporting thousands saved but there is no real evidence after 30 years of it, what difference does it really make? It is just wood hay and stubble.

 

[IFB X-Files]

The raw numbers of baptisms are down, but the number of baptisms of saved people is way up.

Somehow I think there is a message clouded in that statement.

 

[bgwilkinson]

The raw numbers of baptisms are down, but the number of baptisms of saved people is way up.

Somehow I think there is a message clouded in that statement.

Sorry, I'm just not very good with words. 

I tried to be clear and unambiguous.  ;D ;D ;D ;D

"New Measures" gives massively false results and leaves the surrounding area a "Burned-Over District" with gullible people highly susceptible to the likes of a Joseph Smith and the target of the latest religious fad as the victims of Finney soon discovered, however their hearts were now hard to the gospel.

One has to look no further than Gray in Texas, Millions of salvation decisions were claimed, but the fruit did not remain and is nowhere to be found today even with those massive numbers claimed.

When one is out witnessing for Christ in our area it is not unusual to find people who readily admit to coming to our church, participating in the rituals of the invitation and baptism, but exhibiting no real understanding of the gospel. They will equate "walking the aisle" with salvation and dependance on the personal worker at the end of the aisle for their assurance of salvation. "Been there, done that", is common, with no interest in the things of the LORD. A two fold child of hell. You can not stuff the Holy Spirit in a box and use Him at will like a magic amulet. Emotionalism interpreted as the working of the Holy Spirit.

Because the professions of this kind of convert apparently were never genuine they do not stick and remain as a part of the body, if they do remain they are as dead men producing no fruit of repentance. They have an empty rehearsed profession without genuine substance. Perhaps that is why so many Baptist pastors can be heard claiming they have a large percentage of unsaved people in their churches.

Baptists say they believe in saved and baptized members but maybe any old tithing member will do.

An interesting read that might have some relation to the above.
http://www.crookedlakereview.com/books/saints_sinners/martin1.html

 

[Smellin Coffee]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

 

[16KJV11]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

Definitely sad...

 

[Fresh Air]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

That is inexcusably appalling...

 

[Bravo]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

But, but, but I learned good things there!

 

[bgwilkinson]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

The burned over zone around FBCH was very noticeable in the 80s. It was not unusual out witnessing to ask a person if they died today if they were 100% sure they would go to heaven, they would reply been there done that now get the ____ out of here.

There is no place where we get the doors slammed on us as often as in Hammond.

One of the big reasons for going to a big place like Chicago is that you meet fewer of these burned over people. They have not had the high-pressured salesmanship used on them as often.

Smellin illustrates perfectly the industrial type soul-winning we used, where you decide what results you want, and then you just go out and get-em saved.

 

[Fresh Air]

The burned over zone around FBCH was very noticeable in the 80s. It was not unusual out witnessing to ask a person if they died today if they were 100% sure they would go to heaven, they would reply been there done that now get the ____ out of here.

There is no place where we get the doors slammed on us as often as in Hammond.

One of the big reasons for going to a big place like Chicago is that you meet fewer of these burned over people. They have not had the high-pressured salesmanship used on them as often.

Smellin illustrates perfectly the industrial type soul-winning we used, where you decide what results you want, and then you just go out and get-em saved.

When I joined Bible Clubs I moved from soul winning in Chicago to soul winning in Hammond. For the first year my personal area incorporated about a five block radius around 523 Sibley. I had more doors slammed in my face than anywhere else I've been. I got mooned, eggs thrown at me, sworn at, thrown off of porches, etc. When I became bus captain of the teenage route in Hammond for the following four years I implored my workers to leave people smiling, to not be pushy at all, and to be exceedingly polite and compassionate. That area had been hammered for years.

I don't always, strike that, often agree with Wilkinson but he is spot on with this one.

 

[RAIDER]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

But, but, but I learned good things there!

Bravo, did you know about this?

 

[RAIDER]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

If I heard this from someone that I didn't know I would question the validity of it.  Smellin, while you and I don't see eye to eye on everything, I have not known you to be dishonest on the FFF.  This is disgusting and inexcusable.

 

[Bravo]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

But, but, but I learned good things there!

Bravo, did you know about this?

No I do not personally know of this story. I do know I had one kid on my bus who was a good kid. He got baptized on a hot summer day. We rejoiced with him about this. A couple weeks later on another very hot Sunday he comes up and says, "Brother _______ I took a baptized today!" I questioned him and explained you get baptized once after salvation. He replied, "I know, but I was hot." This happened a couple times that summer. To be honest I chuckled to myself at his cooling off method but I NEVER encouraged that.

 

[RAIDER]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through so Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

But, but, but I learned good things there!

Bravo, did you know about this?

No I do not personally know of this story. I do know I had one kid on my bus who was a good kid. He got baptized on a hot summer day. We rejoiced with him about this. A couple weeks later on another very hot Sunday he comes up and says, "Brother _______ I took a baptized today!" I questioned him and explained you get baptized once after salvation. He replied, "I know, but I was hot." This happened a couple times that summer. To be honest I chuckled to myself at his cooling off method but I NEVER encouraged that.

Oh, ok, I thought by your statement "...but I learned good things there" that maybe you knew this was going on while you were a student.

 

[Mathew Ward]

Can't speak for bg because I've been away for a quarter of a century now. However, when I was there, baptismal numbers were skewed as bg said. During PS one year, I was one of Hyles' personal bodyguards along with my dad and we would walk him from his office to the pulpit, wait in the choir waiting room with him before he went to the platform, etc. During PS that particular year, the college students were sent around the area to witness to people and they were to bring them in to get baptized during PS. None were coming through uso Hyles called Lapina over and told him to go grab some City Baptist kids to get baptized. Of course, Lapina obliged and a couple of those Christian school kids got baptized a couple times each that week. IIRC, there was only a couple "legit" baptisms involving outsiders brought in to be baptized.

So I agree with bg that baptismal numbers were skewed, at least in the 80s.

When you are promoting performance based Christianity everything is for show.

 

[bgwilkinson]

With FBC's new pastor and his discipleship program being implemented, can anyone offer insight how this has affected the number of baptisms at the church.  I try to view their live stream services, but it usually turns off before the reading of the names and the baptisms.

I know that during JH's 80's and 90's, FBC regularly had over 10,000 annual baptisms. Even back in the 60's, Bro Hyles was having dozens baptized every Sunday.  I just was looking through Bro Hyles' book, "Let's Use Forms and Letters", and in the book is a copy of FBC's church bulletin dated Oct 24, 1965, and it states that 36 were baptized the previous Sunday.  Later in the book is a copy of a newsletter for the deaf called "Glad Tidings", and it states that 12 were baptized on 9-26-65 and 36 baptized on 10-3-65.  (I'm finding many memories and good times at FBC that I've forgotten recently.)

Just curious how the present baptism are.

I do remember the 10,000 figure, then I did a little math, 10,000 divided by 104 which is the number of Sunday morning and evening services and you get an average number of 96 baptisms per service. That is a rather high average considering through the summer months we would not have very many at all and some services there would not be even one baptism. I can testify that we have no where near that number now.

Again there are services where there is not even one baptism.

We sure had a problem with numbers.

What was the number of sermons Bro. Hyles claimed to have preached? Was it somewhere around 50,000?
The number would periodically change by several thousand, it was hard to keep up with it.

Let's do a little math. 50,000 sermons divided by a lifetime ministry of 50 years in round numbers would make an average of 1000 sermons every year on the average some years less some years more.

1000 Sermons a year divided by 52 weeks would mean that he preached on the average 20 sermons per week, now I could never figure out how that could be. How was there enough time to study?

If you studied just 3 hours for each sermon that would be 60 hours a week in sermon preparation. Now we can't forget the time it takes to present a sermon with all prefatory activities. Average service would be, what one and a half hours? So that's 30 more hours for sermon presentation. We are at 60 hours of preparation and 30 hours of presentation giving us a total of 90 hours per week on the average.

Then I would break it down to total number of hours per week a normal pastor who preaches a thousand sermons a year would spend in various activities.

What about the prayer time in the forest preserve and at Memory Lane with mom? At least 3 hours per day. 21 hours per week.

What about the hundreds of people that were counseled every week? Another 10 hours.

What about sleep time? Let's not go overboard here, say 6 hours per day that's 42 hours per week.

Soul-winning time?  2 hours per day that's 14 hours or so a week.

Ok let's add these up, 60 hours preparation, 30 hours presentation, 21 hours praying for God to bless the sermons, 42 hours sleep to restore energy to enable sermon presentation, 10 hours in counseling, 14 hours winning the lost, and I think I missed a number of things a busy pastor would do but this is a start.

I used an adding machine and all the above added up to 177 hours.

24 x 7 is 168 hours in a week, so I always had a problem making it work out.

I would always get to this point and my head would start to hurt, how could this be? Well I never could answer that question, "how could this be"? I wanted to believe my pastor.

How can a busy pastor and father mange to preach a thousand sermons per year average over a lifetime?

He must have been chasing his tail.

Anybody have any ideas how this could have been the case?

 

[Bruh]

With FBC's new pastor and his discipleship program being implemented, can anyone offer insight how this has affected the number of baptisms at the church.  I try to view their live stream services, but it usually turns off before the reading of the names and the baptisms.

I know that during JH's 80's and 90's, FBC regularly had over 10,000 annual baptisms. Even back in the 60's, Bro Hyles was having dozens baptized every Sunday.  I just was looking through Bro Hyles' book, "Let's Use Forms and Letters", and in the book is a copy of FBC's church bulletin dated Oct 24, 1965, and it states that 36 were baptized the previous Sunday.  Later in the book is a copy of a newsletter for the deaf called "Glad Tidings", and it states that 12 were baptized on 9-26-65 and 36 baptized on 10-3-65.  (I'm finding many memories and good times at FBC that I've forgotten recently.)

Just curious how the present baptism are.

I do remember the 10,000 figure, then I did a little math, 10,000 divided by 104 which is the number of Sunday morning and evening services and you get an average number of 96 baptisms per service. That is a rather high average considering through the summer months we would not have very many at all and some services there would not be even one baptism. I can testify that we have no where near that number now.

Again there are services where there is not even one baptism.

We sure had a problem with numbers.

What was the number of sermons Bro. Hyles claimed to have preached? Was it somewhere around 50,000?
The number would periodically change by several thousand, it was hard to keep up with it.

Let's do a little math. 50,000 sermons divided by a lifetime ministry of 50 years in round numbers would make an average of 1000 sermons every year on the average some years less some years more.

1000 Sermons a year divided by 52 weeks would mean that he preached on the average 20 sermons per week, now I could never figure out how that could be. How was there enough time to study?

If you studied just 3 hours for each sermon that would be 60 hours a week in sermon preparation. Now we can't forget the time it takes to present a sermon with all prefatory activities. Average service would be, what one and a half hours? So that's 30 more hours for sermon presentation. We are at 60 hours of preparation and 30 hours of presentation giving us a total of 90 hours per week on the average.

Then I would break it down to total number of hours per week a normal pastor who preaches a thousand sermons a year would spend in various activities.

What about the prayer time in the forest preserve and at Memory Lane with mom? At least 3 hours per day. 21 hours per week.

What about the hundreds of people that were counseled every week? Another 10 hours.

What about sleep time? Let's not go overboard here, say 6 hours per day that's 42 hours per week.

Soul-winning time?  2 hours per day that's 14 hours or so a week.

Ok let's add these up, 60 hours preparation, 30 hours presentation, 21 hours praying for God to bless the sermons, 42 hours sleep to restore energy to enable sermon presentation, 10 hours in counseling, 14 hours winning the lost, and I think I missed a number of things a busy pastor would do but this is a start.

I used an adding machine and all the above added up to 177 hours.

24 x 7 is 168 hours in a week, so I always had a problem making it work out.

I would always get to this point and my head would start to hurt, how could this be? Well I never could answer that question, "how could this be"? I wanted to believe my pastor.

How can a busy pastor and father mange to preach a thousand sermons per year average over a lifetime?

He must have been chasing his tail.

Anybody have any ideas how this could have been the case?

Maybe minus the sermon prep. I'm sure he had a file or two of sermons. No prep needed there.

 

[Bravo]

BG, you gotta remember the big baptism days we HACkers would do. The projects of Chicago would be divided amongst the different bus divisions, and Bible Clubs. Even some adult classes got involved. These special days would yield a lot of baptisms as well.

On side note it was tough for the bus workers on those days. Of course the obvious extra hours and effort by already worn out students. But also the effort to get these kids to come from the projects and the quick connection made with the parents, and we wouldn't go back until 6 months later if at all. It began to weigh on the hearts of some of us.

A lot  of those projects are gone now. I wondered what we would do after that happened for big baptism days.

 

[RebeccasRants]

The burned over zone around FBCH was very noticeable in the 80s. It was not unusual out witnessing to ask a person if they died today if they were 100% sure they would go to heaven, they would reply been there done that now get the ____ out of here.

There is no place where we get the doors slammed on us as often as in Hammond.

One of the big reasons for going to a big place like Chicago is that you meet fewer of these burned over people. They have not had the high-pressured salesmanship used on them as often.

Smellin illustrates perfectly the industrial type soul-winning we used, where you decide what results you want, and then you just go out and get-em saved.

When I joined Bible Clubs I moved from soul winning in Chicago to soul winning in Hammond. For the first year my personal area incorporated about a five block radius around 523 Sibley. I had more doors slammed in my face than anywhere else I've been. I got mooned, eggs thrown at me, sworn at, thrown off of porches, etc. When I became bus captain of the teenage route in Hammond for the following four years I implored my workers to leave people smiling, to not be pushy at all, and to be exceedingly polite and compassionate. That area had been hammered for years.

I don't always, strike that, often agree with Wilkinson but he is spot on with this one.

I too worked in a Bible club right by the church in Hammond in 1984-1986.  It was definitely the hardest place I have ever tried to witness.  My friends and I would talk as long as we could with people before admitting (or they guessed) that we were connected to First Baptist.  Still we did reach some teens for Christ.  I wonder where they are today.

 

[Fresh Air]

  Still we did reach some teens for Christ.  I wonder where they are today.

A number of mine are on my facebook friends list. They warm my heart tremendously.

Heaven will be grand...