Churches, Christians and Gay Rights

[Tarheel Baptist]

The Marriage Amendment from a different perspective.
Is it a moral issue or simply a political issue that churches should stay away from?
(Also posted on the 666).

In NC, we vote on the Marriage Amendment on May 8. The amendment would add he traditional definition of marriage into our state constitution. A YES vote is for the amendment and, according to the pro gay rights coalition, a vote for hate and discrimination.

Many evangelical churches have publicly endorsed a no position or they are avoiding the subject like the plague.
Their point is that by public opposition, they ostracize many and would be branded as hate and discrimination churches in the communities they are trying to reach with the Gospel.
I somewhat understand that position.

Our church has taken an approach somewhere in the middle of the two extremes.
We have informed our people and encouraged them to vote yes....but we have also taken the approach that we should love homosexuals while condemning the sin of homosexuality. The same approach we take toward liars, adulterers and drug abuse.

If the church refuses to publicly stand against sin in order to reach sinners, what's the point?

What do you believe our approach should be?

 

[rsc2a]

 

[Izdaari]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

 

[rsc2a]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

I second that. I'd also add that the people in the church need to be more worried about their own sins than the sins of others. (See my first post.)

 

[Mathew Ward]

Government is not amoral or neutral.  They will either pass laws that are moral or laws that are immoral.  If government is a representation of the people then those who call themselves Christians and live moral lives should be properly represented in government.

 

[OZZY]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

So laws against, stealing, murder,prostitution, drunk driving, ect. (Which are all sins) Jesus and you are against?

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

So laws against, stealing, murder,prostitution, drunk driving, ect. (Which are all sins) Jesus and you are against?

Exactly.
All law legislates someone's morality....or immorality.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

I second that. I'd also add that the people in the church need to be more worried about their own sins than the sins of others. (See my first post.)

So, if you were in Nazi Germany when Hitler was persecuting Jews, you'd want your church to remain neutral......

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Government is not amoral or neutral.  They will either pass laws that are moral or laws that are immoral.  If government is a representation of the people then those who call themselves Christians and live moral lives should be properly represented in government.

 

[rsc2a]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

I second that. I'd also add that the people in the church need to be more worried about their own sins than the sins of others. (See my first post.)

So, if you were in Nazi Germany when Hitler was persecuting Jews, you'd want your church to remain neutral......

Godwin's Law in action.  :

 

[Anchor]

George Orwell's 1984 presented a topsy-turvy world where government was basically one big lie.  The hero in the story made the observation that the ministry of peace was the hub of war, the ministry of plenty supervised the perpetual famine, the ministry of love administered the torture and mind-control, and the ministry of truth was in the business of formulating and perpetuating lies.  The key word involved was "Newspeak" which we also know as "double-speak."

"Gay marriage" is newspeak/doublespeak.  It is nothing more than a lie.  Marriage does not mean 2 guys, 2 girls; it never has, and it never will.  Marriage is a covenant relationship between man and woman with family in mind. 

A large brown bird with a white head and tail, that offers a spine tingling scream on crisp clear mornings, grabs fish with its talons, and represents the USA is an eagle.  Someone may reference it as a duck; the whole country can start referring to it as a duck; university studies may conclude that it is a duck; but it never was, is not, and never will be a duck. 

Lies are founded in the Father of Lies, whom we are to "resist steadfastly."  It is good for the individual to expose lies and champion truth; it is good for the church; it is good for the community; and it is good for the nation.

It is not a moral/political controversy.  Resisting deceit and falsehood, no matter how it is couched and supported within the community, and upholding truth is not a matter of expediency--it is simply the right thing to do. 

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

I second that. I'd also add that the people in the church need to be more worried about their own sins than the sins of others. (See my first post.)

So, if you were in Nazi Germany when Hitler was persecuting Jews, you'd want your church to remain neutral......

Godwin's Law in action.  :

OK change Hitler to Stalin and Jews to Christians....
And maybe we should have a referendum on Mike Godwins Law.......

 

[Izdaari]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

So laws against, stealing, murder,prostitution, drunk driving, ect. (Which are all sins) Jesus and you are against?

Except for prostitution, those are not just sins. They are violations of another person's rights, the right not to be aggressed against by others. That is what we have a government for, and to settle our disputes without violence, and to conduct relations with other nations. Because prostitution is only a sin, and not a violation of anyone's rights, the case for prostitution being illegal is IMHO very weak.

 

[Izdaari]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

I second that. I'd also add that the people in the church need to be more worried about their own sins than the sins of others. (See my first post.)

So, if you were in Nazi Germany when Hitler was persecuting Jews, you'd want your church to remain neutral......

No, but that's an extreme example, and as with the distinction I made in my previous post, the problem is not that persecuting Jews is a sin (and of course it is), but that it violates someone's right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (to borrow a phrase from Jefferson). Good people of any religion or none should be united in opposition to that.

 

[Izdaari]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

So laws against, stealing, murder,prostitution, drunk driving, ect. (Which are all sins) Jesus and you are against?

Exactly.
All law legislates someone's morality....or immorality.

Morality is a consideration in making law... but it is rarely a sufficient reason for making a law. Murder is not illegal primarily because it's a sin, but because it unjustly deprives someone of their right to live. Robbery is not illegal primarily because it's a sin, but because it unjustly deprives someone of their right to their own property. We don't have law to prevent sin, but to protect us from aggressors, and to settle our disputes without private feuds and other such arbitrary and unjust means.

 

[Izdaari]

George Orwell's 1984 presented a topsy-turvy world where government was basically one big lie.  The hero in the story made the observation that the ministry of peace was the hub of war, the ministry of plenty supervised the perpetual famine, the ministry of love administered the torture and mind-control, and the ministry of truth was in the business of formulating and perpetuating lies.  The key word involved was "Newspeak" which we also know as "double-speak."

"Gay marriage" is newspeak/doublespeak.  It is nothing more than a lie.  Marriage does not mean 2 guys, 2 girls; it never has, and it never will.  Marriage is a covenant relationship between man and woman with family in mind. 

A large brown bird with a white head and tail, that offers a spine tingling scream on crisp clear mornings, grabs fish with its talons, and represents the USA is an eagle.  Someone may reference it as a duck; the whole country can start referring to it as a duck; university studies may conclude that it is a duck; but it never was, is not, and never will be a duck. 

Lies are founded in the Father of Lies, whom we are to "resist steadfastly."  It is good for the individual to expose lies and champion truth; it is good for the church; it is good for the community; and it is good for the nation.

It is not a moral/political controversy.  Resisting deceit and falsehood, no matter how it is couched and supported within the community, and upholding truth is not a matter of expediency--it is simply the right thing to do.

The problem with the proposed NC law is not that it defines marriage; that the state, arguably at least, has the right to do, at least so long as it's in the business of regulating marriage. The problem is that, by outlawing domestic partnerships and otherwise denying equal protection under the law to couples who can't fit the legal definition of marriage, it intentionally discriminates against them in a way that makes it almost certain to lose when it faces a court challenge.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

So laws against, stealing, murder,prostitution, drunk driving, ect. (Which are all sins) Jesus and you are against?

Exactly.
All law legislates someone's morality....or immorality.

Morality is a consideration in making law... but it is rarely a sufficient reason for making a law. Murder is not illegal primarily because it's a sin, but because it unjustly deprives someone of their right to live. Robbery is not illegal primarily because it's a sin, but because it unjustly deprives someone of their right to their own property. We don't have law to prevent sin, but to protect us from aggressors, and to settle our disputes without private feuds and other such arbitrary and unjust means.

Libertariniasm breaks down in the real world.
The problem is that the books are filled with laws regulationg everything from abortion to banking.
And, our legal system is based on God's moral law, as was the british system we patterned it after.

Morality is legislated, every day, in every way.
Every Christian, as a citizen should do all in their power to prevent their government from endorsing something God condemns.

 

[rsc2a]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

I second that. I'd also add that the people in the church need to be more worried about their own sins than the sins of others. (See my first post.)

So, if you were in Nazi Germany when Hitler was persecuting Jews, you'd want your church to remain neutral......

Godwin's Law in action.  :

OK change Hitler to Stalin and Jews to Christians....
And maybe we should have a referendum on Mike Godwins Law.......

I'm baffled that you actually believe that what two people voluntarily do with each other in the privacy of their own home is comparable to the deliberate genocide of an entire people group.

 

[rsc2a]

Libertariniasm breaks down in the real world.
The problem is that the books are filled with laws regulationg everything from abortion to banking.

Non sequitur.

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]And, our legal system is based on God's moral law, as was the british system we patterned it after.

Morality is legislated, every day, in every way.[/quote]

Actually, our Founders borrowed heavily from guys like Voltaire, Rousseau, Hobbes, and Locke (to varying degrees). You are aware of what their ideas regarding social contract are, right? Do you know what classical liberalism is?

[quote author=Tarheel Baptist]Every Christian, as a citizen should do all in their power to prevent their government from endorsing something God condemns.[/quote]

Allowance ≠ endorsement

 

[Izdaari]

I strongly prefer that my church not take stands on any political issues. Being against sin? Preaching against sin? Sure. But passing laws against sin is another matter entirely. I don't think it's what Jesus would have us do.

So laws against, stealing, murder,prostitution, drunk driving, ect. (Which are all sins) Jesus and you are against?

Exactly.
All law legislates someone's morality....or immorality.

Morality is a consideration in making law... but it is rarely a sufficient reason for making a law. Murder is not illegal primarily because it's a sin, but because it unjustly deprives someone of their right to live. Robbery is not illegal primarily because it's a sin, but because it unjustly deprives someone of their right to their own property. We don't have law to prevent sin, but to protect us from aggressors, and to settle our disputes without private feuds and other such arbitrary and unjust means.

Libertariniasm breaks down in the real world.
The problem is that the books are filled with laws regulationg everything from abortion to banking.
And, our legal system is based on God's moral law, as was the british system we patterned it after.

Morality is legislated, every day, in every way.
Every Christian, as a citizen should do all in their power to prevent their government from endorsing something God condemns.

Yes, the principles of classical liberalism (now called libertarianism) that most of the Founding Fathers believed in, and that were written into the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, are often violated by our government. But I still believe in them, and will continue to fight for them in the political arena.

And btw, you may not have noticed, but Bible believing Christians are a minority in this country. Endorsing government as the arbiter of morality instead of challenging it and insisting on a rights-based approach, is likely to come back and bite you when people who don't share your view of morality run the government (as is currently the case in the White House and in the Senate).