Bonhoeffer: Lutherans, Nazis and America's Culture War.

[Tarheel Baptist]

Started reading “Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy” by Eric Metaxas.
It tells the story of Bonhoeffer's opposition of the Nazi movement and the Lutheran Church's adoption and adaptation to it...in an attempt to remain culturally acceptable.

Reminds me, and many others, of what's happening in SOME segments of evangelicalism in America today.
Anyone here read it?
Do you see similarities?
Just getting started, but the concept seems sadly plausible.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

They created God in their own image, much like we do today.
They also created 'sin' in their own image, much like we do today.

 

[Fresh Air]

Started reading “Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy” by Eric Metaxas.
It tells the story of Bonhoeffer's opposition of the Nazi movement and the Lutheran Church's adoption and adaptation to it...in an attempt to remain culturally acceptable.

Reminds me, and many others, of what's happening in SOME segments of evangelicalism in America today.
Anyone here read it?
Do you see similarities?
Just getting started, but the concept seems sadly plausible.

I read it a couple of months ago. I was moved by his courage while at the same time questioning his doctrine and his decisions. I wonder, if he had sat under the right mentor, if he would have become a fundamentalist. He certainly admired them, and respected/liked their position much more than the liberals of his day, but neo-orthodoxy is somewhat puzzling to me, and I'm not sure if he was, in the end, actually orthodox. He is credited with statements that say he believed the Bible is the Word of God in some places, but in other places he seems to say something different. And there was zero discussion of justification, and what he believed about it, and even in a secular history book I would think that would have come up. Of course, I've not actually read any of his direct sermons/books, so perhaps my confusion about what he actually believed could be cleared up by doing so.

The book itself is very interesting, and it lends a perspective on that whole timeframe that I hadn't really thought of before even though I've read dozens of books on WWII. The end of the book, with its detailed hour by hour description of his coming execution, is heartbreaking. He was <this close> to living through it all.

In relation to parallels with our own day, I didn't really notice them. The system he was in (complete state church/demonic dictator) is not one which has any direct parallel in our day. As a fundamentalist, I did find his willingness to ecclesiastically separate from what was plainly wrong to be highly commendable.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

Started reading “Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy” by Eric Metaxas.
It tells the story of Bonhoeffer's opposition of the Nazi movement and the Lutheran Church's adoption and adaptation to it...in an attempt to remain culturally acceptable.

Reminds me, and many others, of what's happening in SOME segments of evangelicalism in America today.
Anyone here read it?
Do you see similarities?
Just getting started, but the concept seems sadly plausible.

I read it a couple of months ago. I was moved by his courage while at the same time questioning his doctrine and his decisions. I wonder, if he had sat under the right mentor, if he would have become a fundamentalist. He certainly admired them, and respected/liked their position much more than the liberals of his day, but neo-orthodoxy is somewhat puzzling to me, and I'm not sure if he was, in the end, actually orthodox. He is credited with statements that say he believed the Bible is the Word of God in some places, but in other places he seems to say something different. And there was zero discussion of justification, and what he believed about it, and even in a secular history book I would think that would have come up. Of course, I've not actually read any of his direct sermons/books, so perhaps my confusion about what he actually believed could be cleared up by doing so.

The book itself is very interesting, and it lends a perspective on that whole timeframe that I hadn't really thought of before even though I've read dozens of books on WWII. The end of the book, with its detailed hour by hour description of his coming execution, is heartbreaking. He was <this close> to living through it all.

In relation to parallels with our own day, I didn't really notice them. The system he was in (complete state church/demonic dictator) is not one which has any direct parallel in our day. As a fundamentalist, I did find his willingness to ecclesiastically separate from what was plainly wrong to be highly commendable.

The point many make, which led me to get the book, is that the 'religious system' adapted to Nazi doctrine and practice because it was commonly accepted in the culture. That is certainly happening in the culture today, in mainstream evangelicalism. The fundamentalist movement was on the rise in America during his lifetime, and was a real part of America's strength...sadly there is no such movement today!

 

[Stephen]

In relation to parallels with our own day, I didn't really notice them.

the parallels to what's going on in this country are down right frightening.  Either you didn't read the book or you are living in a cave.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

In relation to parallels with our own day, I didn't really notice them.

the parallels to what's going on in this country are down right frightening.  Either you didn't read the book or you are living in a cave.

I agree Stephen, the parallels are frightening.
I think Tom just has a problem with who the 'good guys' could possibly be, since fundamentalism for all practical purposes is dead.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

In relation to parallels with our own day, I didn't really notice them.

the parallels to what's going on in this country are down right frightening.  Either you didn't read the book or you are living in a cave.

I agree Stephen, the parallels are frightening.
I think Tom just has a problem with who the 'good guys' could possibly be, since fundamentalism for all practical purposes is dead.

At least the Fundamentalist Movement birthed around the time of WWII is for all practical purposes dead.

 

[Fresh Air]

...reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

 

[freelance_christian]

...reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

Wishful thinking my friend.

 

[Fresh Air]

...reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

Wishful thinking my friend.

Right. There aren't actually thousands of strong IFB churches across America, with the addition of hundreds of strong Orthodox Presbyterian and fundamentalist Lutheran as well.

Yep. We are the biggest dead thing you ever saw still kickin'...

The canard that fundamentalism is dead in America is about as true as the fact that Christianity is dead in China.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

...reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

Wishful thinking my friend.

Right. There aren't actually thousands of strong IFB churches across America, with the addition of hundreds of strong Orthodox Presbyterian and fundamentalist Lutheran as well.

Yep. We are the biggest dead thing you ever saw still kickin'...

The canard that fundamentalism is dead in America is about as true as the fact that Christianity is dead in China.

Assuming a broad definition of 'fundamentalism', I agree.
My posts were referring to the historic Fundamentalist Movement that was on the rise during Bonhoeffer's lifetime. It grew, gained influence and peaked, it could be argued, in the late 60s early 70s.

I think you would agree that fundamentalism is 'weaker' today than in the past.
I would agree that generic fundamentalism is far from dead. I consider myself to be a fundamentalist, by definition. I also would say the Missouri Synod Of Lutherans are fundamental by definition.

Where do we disagree? I'm sure we do somewhere....

 

[BandGuy]

Started reading “Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy” by Eric Metaxas.
It tells the story of Bonhoeffer's opposition of the Nazi movement and the Lutheran Church's adoption and adaptation to it...in an attempt to remain culturally acceptable.

Reminds me, and many others, of what's happening in SOME segments of evangelicalism in America today.
Anyone here read it?
Do you see similarities?
Just getting started, but the concept seems sadly plausible.

I did read it about a year or two ago and it is excellent.  We are not quite to that point yet, IMO, but we are certainly heading the same direction very rapidly.

 

[freelance_christian]

...reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

Wishful thinking my friend.

Right. There aren't actually thousands of strong IFB churches across America, with the addition of hundreds of strong Orthodox Presbyterian and fundamentalist Lutheran as well.

Yep. We are the biggest dead thing you ever saw still kickin'...

The canard that fundamentalism is dead in America is about as true as the fact that Christianity is dead in China.

I guess I should have clarified that baptist fundamentalism is dead. Most ifb would not consider Presbyterians and Lutherans to be in their click. By your definition we need to also include broad evangelicalism in the fundamentalist fold.

 

[Tarheel Baptist]

...reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

Wishful thinking my friend.

Right. There aren't actually thousands of strong IFB churches across America, with the addition of hundreds of strong Orthodox Presbyterian and fundamentalist Lutheran as well.

Yep. We are the biggest dead thing you ever saw still kickin'...

The canard that fundamentalism is dead in America is about as true as the fact that Christianity is dead in China.

I guess I should have clarified that baptist fundamentalism is dead. Most ifb would not consider Presbyterians and Lutherans to be in their click. By your definition we need to also include broad evangelicalism in the fundamentalist fold.

Baptist Fundamentalism would, by my definition, also include most of the churches in the Southern Baptist Convention!
The narrow, cultural conviction form of fundamentalism is IMO dying...

 

[freelance_christian]

...reports of our demise are greatly exaggerated.

Wishful thinking my friend.

Right. There aren't actually thousands of strong IFB churches across America, with the addition of hundreds of strong Orthodox Presbyterian and fundamentalist Lutheran as well.

Yep. We are the biggest dead thing you ever saw still kickin'...

The canard that fundamentalism is dead in America is about as true as the fact that Christianity is dead in China.

I guess I should have clarified that baptist fundamentalism is dead. Most ifb would not consider Presbyterians and Lutherans to be in their click. By your definition we need to also include broad evangelicalism in the fundamentalist fold.

Baptist Fundamentalism would, by my definition, also include most of the churches in the Southern Baptist Convention!
The narrow, cultural conviction form of fundamentalism is IMO dying...

Fundamentalism may have infiltrated segments of the SBC, but the SBC, founded in 1845, predates fundamentalism. And you know as well as I do, that any self-respecting fundy would have nothing to do with the SBC.