AV 2Thes1:7-10(forcontext)"And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not thne gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;Ransom said:Reformed Guy said:If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.
Granted, but even so, it doesn't imply that God is there as a torturer.
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess. 1:9).
So there is a sense in which hell is separated from God, whether it is a "bubble" of the created order where God does not exist (unlikely, given the usual definition of omnipresence); or while he is there, it is not to care for those in hell or to comfort or bless them; or some other sense.
prophet said:Nor does the Bible ever say that Hell = separation from God. The Lamb and the Father are one.aleshanee said:prophet said:I have had a bad habit, lately , of posting things from memory. I have a photographic memory, it leaves me in a dark room and doesn't develop.
When someone corrects me, I look into it, cuz I may be wrong.
So thank you to those who pay attention, and let me know when I'm off.
Anishinabe
no problem... thanks for correcting the verse...... .. rev 14;10 does say the condemned will be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb....(Jesus as the sacrifice for sins)... .. but i have never seen that to indicate they would also be in the presence of God the Father....or that they would not feel eternal separation from Him.... .. but i will definitely study that further..... thank you....
Anishinabe
Ransom said:BandGuy said:1. Is Hell not a place of torture? Is JP Moreland teetering on the edge of Rob Bell Theology here?
What Moreland said is, "God does not torture people in Hell." I have no doubt that people in hell feel tortured, however, I don't think that is exactly the same thing as saying that God is sadistically inflicting pain upon them.
Without more context or a wider view of Moreland's beliefs, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
BandGuy said:Ransom said:BandGuy said:1. Is Hell not a place of torture? Is JP Moreland teetering on the edge of Rob Bell Theology here?
What Moreland said is, "God does not torture people in Hell." I have no doubt that people in hell feel tortured, however, I don't think that is exactly the same thing as saying that God is sadistically inflicting pain upon them.
Without more context or a wider view of Moreland's beliefs, I'd be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Do you believe, though, that Hell is a place of torture? If so, who is torturing them?
prophet said:AV 2Thes1:7-10(forcontext)"And to you who are troubled rest with us, WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not thne gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;Ransom said:Reformed Guy said:If you accept that hell involves eternal separation from God, then there's no one to torture them. Torture implies an active torturer, and there is none. They are being tormented.
Granted, but even so, it doesn't imply that God is there as a torturer.
"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thess. 1:9).
So there is a sense in which hell is separated from God, whether it is a "bubble" of the created order where God does not exist (unlikely, given the usual definition of omnipresence); or while he is there, it is not to care for those in hell or to comfort or bless them; or some other sense.
WHEN he shall come to be glorified in his saints,..."
Anishinaabe